LWB High Roof Sprinter 313CDI

[garrick]

I have a 2000 model 313 CDI LWB High Roof Sprinter which I have converted to a motorhome.

I purchased the vehicle second hand, and it has had an intermittent fault for soem time that the local Mercedes Benz service facility has not been able to identify or fix.

Sometime I can start the vehicle and drive away and can immediately feel the engine is not developing its normal power output. It feels as though there is no boost pressure coming from the turbocharger. If I stop the vehicle, turn the engine off, restart the engine, and drive away, everything is back to normal.

On one occasion when this fault happend, I immedaitely took the van into the Mercedes Service Facility and without shutting the engine down, they connected it to their computer analyzer but could find no fault despite the engine still not developing its normal power. One of the Nerceds Technicians suggested the fault might be being caused by a microiswitch on the clutch, so we replaced this, and the fault disappeared, only to recurr again on sevarl occasions at a later date.

I live in Adelaide in Australia and my wife and I have just completed a very enjoyable 9 day Xmas break in the van at a beautiful spot in South Australia called Streaky Bay.

During our return journey to Adelaide we experienced the following very annoying problem with the Sprinter. I must also mention there was a heat wave during this period and we were experiencing ambient temperatures up to 45 degress C.

We were travelling at about 110 Kl/Hr average and the water temp gauge showed 100 degrees C. (Normally runs at 80 degrees C). At times I was forced to slow down to less than 80 Kl/Hr, and when I treid to accelerate again, the engine had lost power, and I was barely able to make 90 Kl/Hr. It was though we had lost boost from the turbocharger. If I stopped the vehicle, turned the engine off, then restarted and got under way, the engine would return to normal producing full power again, and I could then travel at 110 Kl/Hr again.

The condition seemed to worsen as we went on (this was a 500 Kl journey) and the problem was appearing more often. Stopping and restarting the engine didn't always clear the problem, and I had to repaet this process several time before the engine would go back to producing full power again.

When the problen happens, you can feel it instantly, and sometimes I would restart and the engine would fell OK but when i got to about 80Kl/Hr in 4th gear, the problem would occur again.

This is now becoming a very frustrating issue and I have dome what I can by taking the vehicle to Mercedes but that has not got me anywhere. Perhaps somebody out there has experienced the same problem and has found the cause of the problem.

I would really appreaciate any help somebody might be able to offer to fix this problem.

 

[Bill312D]

when the engine loses pwoer leikt hat its the van going into limp home mode...it can be caused by lots of things, fuel starvation, MAF sensor, brake pedal switch are just a few

 

[dava]

Motor home rings bells to me, if it's not used regularly and it has low bats at times it drops into limp home mode when the volatge drops below 11.4 volts and once started bat charges to full, turn off ignition resets it's self. This is a common known fault for this and many other modern vehs, one worth noting for other MB owners. Buy your self an inteligent battery charger to keep the bat up to max all the time.

 

[Cnics]

A valid point by Dava, had this problem on a small splitter bus i used to use regularly. not a sprinter but the same thin applies across the board i should imagine.

Other things to consider, turbo boost sensor, or the wiring loom that runs along the front near the rad/intercooler, these are prone to coming out of clips and rubbing against the chassis and shorting to earth / eachother. This however SHOULD bring up a fault code if i remember. The turbo itself wouldn't necessarily bring up a fault, though i wouldn't expect the on and off problem to be quite so sudden and intermittent if it were the turbo.

 

[dava]

A valid point by Dava, had this problem on a small splitter bus i used to use regularly. not a sprinter but the same thin applies across the board i should imagine.

Other things to consider, turbo boost sensor, or the wiring loom that runs along the front near the rad/intercooler, these are prone to coming out of clips and rubbing against the chassis and shorting to earth / eachother. This however SHOULD bring up a fault code if i remember. The turbo itself wouldn't necessarily bring up a fault, though i wouldn't expect the on and off problem to be quite so sudden and intermittent if it were the turbo.

All of the above would and do bring up fault codes, low voltage does not.

 

[garrick]

when the engine loses pwoer leikt hat its the van going into limp home mode...it can be caused by lots of things, fuel starvation, MAF sensor, brake pedal switch are just a few

Bill many thanks for this, and I hope you don't mind my further question, but I am not familiar enough with my Sprinter and appreciate your help.

Is the "Limp Mode" somethiong that is "built in" to the Sprinter??

Is it a mode where certain functions are shut down to just get the vehicle home??

Many thanks again.

 

[garrick]

Motor home rings bells to me, if it's not used regularly and it has low bats at times it drops into limp home mode when the volatge drops below 11.4 volts and once started bat charges to full, turn off ignition resets it's self. This is a common known fault for this and many other modern vehs, one worth noting for other MB owners. Buy your self an inteligent battery charger to keep the bat up to max all the time.

Thanks Dava for the suggestion, but it is definetly not a battery problem. The vehicle is run for about 100 km on a weekly basis, and the battery is only a few months old.

I appreciate your assistance.

 

[garrick]

A valid point by Dava, had this problem on a small splitter bus i used to use regularly. not a sprinter but the same thin applies across the board i should imagine.

Other things to consider, turbo boost sensor, or the wiring loom that runs along the front near the rad/intercooler, these are prone to coming out of clips and rubbing against the chassis and shorting to earth / eachother. This however SHOULD bring up a fault code if i remember. The turbo itself wouldn't necessarily bring up a fault, though i wouldn't expect the on and off problem to be quite so sudden and intermittent if it were the turbo.

Thank you Cnics for your reply. I really appreciate your advice.

I am not familiar with the operating parameters of the 313 CDI engine, and hope you don't mind my further questions.

What is the turbo boost sensor, and what is its function?

Where is it located on the engine?

Is the output (boost pressure) of the turbo on the 313CDI controlled electronically, and if so does the turbo boost sensor form part of or all of this function? (controlling the boost pressure)

I will have the wiring loom you mention checked also.

Kind Regards

 

[Bill312D]

Bill many thanks for this, and I hope you don't mind my further question, but I am not familiar enough with my Sprinter and appreciate your help.

Is the "Limp Mode" somethiong that is "built in" to the Sprinter??

Is it a mode where certain functions are shut down to just get the vehicle home??

Many thanks again.

YEah pretty much, your cut down to somethign like 2500rpm max under load and 3800 with no load (in neutral dipped clutch etc) which gives you a max speed of about 50, niot usre exactly how this is achieved what is cut etc...dava is the man inthe know really, this is just from expirience of my own problems.

 

[garrick]

Thank you Cnics for your reply. I really appreciate your advice.

I am not familiar with the operating parameters of the 313 CDI engine, and hope you don't mind my further questions.

What is the turbo boost sensor, and what is its function?

Where is it located on the engine?

Is the output (boost pressure) of the turbo on the 313CDI controlled electronically, and if so does the turbo boost sensor form part of or all of this function? (controlling the boost pressure)

I will have the wiring loom you mention checked also.

Dava

Thank you again for your advice.

If you have the time I would appreciate if you also would reply to the questions I have asked Cnics.

Thank you in anticipation. I very much appreciate any assistance in trying to solve this problem.

Kind Regards

 

[dava]

First of all 100k (60 m) a week ain't a lot and to say it's new battery does not mean it's getting a full charge or even holding it and camper van have loads of kit on draining away voltage in the back ground and to be fair you should have two batteries fitted, one for the van, idealy a 100 amp Gell battery and one dedicated to starting, ideally 110 amps. A GOOD battery will have up to 14volts and if it's less than twelve, under cranking conditions the voltage drops considerably, if it drops below 11v, limp home mode kicks in and wont reset untill the battery recharges and you reset the fault code by switching the ign off then on again. Please check the voltage and the charge rate, then give me as much info as you can, I regulary look at post on here and am unable to answer them due to poor information from the start and only after many posts does the story start to develope. All of the faults cinics spoke of would produce a faut code and remain in the ECU memory as you say a MB guy checked it and no fault codes showed, so we've got to assume alls well with these. As for the clutch switch, I've never had one go before, but fitted many brake light switches, which would produce this type of fault, but again this would store a fault code, if was the clutch switch and not the brake one, change it, they are about £11.00 and a piece of cake to change and if it has not gone then it's a good idea to do it as it will go at some stage, also check the stop ligt bulbs for bad contacts etc, or even change these too as this gives the same fault.

Hope this helps.

And to chear you up totally, I've just got in from work and I'm froze to the bone! ****** 45c!

 

[Jacko918]

Try This......

It's a tricky one with no fault codes as like Dava said most of the faults listed bring up fault codes.

I have changed a few clutch pedal switches, so you could try this.

The fault manifests it's self as the vehicle won't rev over 2,500 rpm or go over 50 mph.

I normally test the clutch switch by doing the following:

1)Start engine and push throttle to floor. You'll notice it won't rev over approximately 2,500 rpm. Release throttle pedal.

2) Now push clutch pedal to floor and release it. Now floor the throttle pedal again. Engine should now rev to maximum, If it doesn't, It's possible the clutch pedal switch is faulty.

3)To check the sensitivitiy of the switch and make sure it's not oversensitive, after doing the above floor the throttle and slowly push the clutch pedal down the rev's shouldn't instantly drop to 2,500 the moment the clutch pedal is touched but more like after a couple of centimetres of clutch pedal travel.

Don't know if that will help you but you could try it.

To put your Turbo boost theory to the test try the following:

The way I check that a turbo is boosting properly on a Sprinter at the side of the road (if I don't have the Star machine with me) is to grab the top intercooler hose with your hand. Crush the hose flat in your hand by trying to make a fist, then get someone to floor the throttle(you'll have to make sure it fully revs out as above). The boost in the hose will expand the hose very strongly, to the point it will force you to open your fist as you won't physically be strong enough to hold it clenched. If you can hold it clenched the Turbo's not boosting sufficently. Try this both when it's running ok and when it's playing up so you can make a comparison.

A very crude way to check I know, but it seems to work for me, as I've had a few wastegates stuck open either because they're siezed or the boost control systems faulty.

However, Lack of boost, like Dava Says would normally bring up a fault code.....

You Think it's cold now Dava, apparantly it's meant to go down to -17 this week!

 

[garrick]

First of all 100k (60 m) a week ain't a lot and to say it's new battery does not mean it's getting a full charge or even holding it and camper van have loads of kit on draining away voltage in the back ground and to be fair you should have two batteries fitted, one for the van, idealy a 100 amp Gell battery and one dedicated to starting, ideally 110 amps. A GOOD battery will have up to 14volts and if it's less than twelve, under cranking conditions the voltage drops considerably, if it drops below 11v, limp home mode kicks in and wont reset untill the battery recharges and you reset the fault code by switching the ign off then on again. Please check the voltage and the charge rate, then give me as much info as you can, I regulary look at post on here and am unable to answer them due to poor information from the start and only after many posts does the story start to develope. All of the faults cinics spoke of would produce a faut code and remain in the ECU memory as you say a MB guy checked it and no fault codes showed, so we've got to assume alls well with these. As for the clutch switch, I've never had one go before, but fitted many brake light switches, which would produce this type of fault, but again this would store a fault code, if was the clutch switch and not the brake one, change it, they are about £11.00 and a piece of cake to change and if it has not gone then it's a good idea to do it as it will go at some stage, also check the stop ligt bulbs for bad contacts etc, or even change these too as this gives the same fault.

Hope this helps.

And to chear you up totally, I've just got in from work and I'm froze to the bone! ****** 45c!

Gidday Dava

Thanks for your comments and I hope it gets warmer for you. Our temperatures here have now dropped to a still warm 33 degrees C, so the airconditioning is getting a good work out.

I am fairly confident my problem is not associated with the battery, but will check the various charging and discharging rates as you suggest. I will also explain a little further as to why I don't think my problem is battery related.

I built the campervan my self, and I am an engineer and have a reasonable understanding of how various sytems work. The vehicle has a 120 amp dedictaed battery, which is only a few months old. This battery only suppiles the needs of the vehicle and has no connection at all with the house requirements. The alternator was rebuilt (new bearings/brushes etc) 3 months ago and its performance was checked at that time and everything was very much up to scratch at that time. It could have detiorated since then.

The house has its own dedicated set of two 100 amp AGM batteries that are charged directly from a dedicated 3 stage deep cycle fully automatic charger. There is no provision at all for these batteries to be charged off the vehicle alternator, so it is impossible for the house to pull the vehicle battery down.

The current Loss of Power problem I have described is something that has only just developed, although there has been an intermittent fault that produces the same Loss of Power for soemtime. The latter is the fault MB technicians have not been able to find. I have not had the vehicle to the MB people since this latest problem developed, so I am looking for possibilites before I take it to MB.

I am very interested in the possibility of turbo boost pressure switch being the possible source of the problem, and would very much appreciate if you could advise/tell me more about this switch, such as its function, its location etc etc.

Also Cnics mentions "wiring Loom that runs along the front near the rad/intercooler". I have checked for this yesterday and removed the grill, but do not see the loom he suggests. The only wires in that area on my vehicle appear to relate to the airconditioning.

I will also check the brake lights etc as you suggest.

Again many thnaks for your assistance and advice, and I hope you do not mind my persistence.

Kind Regards

 

[garrick]

It's a tricky one with no fault codes as like Dava said most of the faults listed bring up fault codes.

I have changed a few clutch pedal switches, so you could try this.

The fault manifests it's self as the vehicle won't rev over 2,500 rpm or go over 50 mph.

I normally test the clutch switch by doing the following:

1)Start engine and push throttle to floor. You'll notice it won't rev over approximately 2,500 rpm. Release throttle pedal.

2) Now push clutch pedal to floor and release it. Now floor the throttle pedal again. Engine should now rev to maximum, If it doesn't, It's possible the clutch pedal switch is faulty.

3)To check the sensitivitiy of the switch and make sure it's not oversensitive, after doing the above floor the throttle and slowly push the clutch pedal down the rev's shouldn't instantly drop to 2,500 the moment the clutch pedal is touched but more like after a couple of centimetres of clutch pedal travel.

Don't know if that will help you but you could try it.

To put your Turbo boost theory to the test try the following:

The way I check that a turbo is boosting properly on a Sprinter at the side of the road (if I don't have the Star machine with me) is to grab the top intercooler hose with your hand. Crush the hose flat in your hand by trying to make a fist, then get someone to floor the throttle(you'll have to make sure it fully revs out as above). The boost in the hose will expand the hose very strongly, to the point it will force you to open your fist as you won't physically be strong enough to hold it clenched. If you can hold it clenched the Turbo's not boosting sufficently. Try this both when it's running ok and when it's playing up so you can make a comparison.

A very crude way to check I know, but it seems to work for me, as I've had a few wastegates stuck open either because they're siezed or the boost control systems faulty.

However, Lack of boost, like Dava Says would normally bring up a fault code.....

You Think it's cold now Dava, apparantly it's meant to go down to -17 this week!

Many thanks Jacko918

I will try the tests you have suggested and let you know what hapopens.

Kind Regards

 

[gipsy_jo]

Hi happy & Healthy new year aLL, I experianced the same problem with my 313 I would set of to go over Easten Europe after 100 mile or so I would loose power stop switch of engin have a look under the bonnet couldent see any thing get back in start up and it would be back as it should be for a while then the same thing. Guys dont laugh I'm a christian guy and while driving I asked the Lord to show me what it could be and after a few miles as true as I'm sitting here I got the answer ON THE DIESEL LINE IN I HAD A ECO MAGNET FOR ECONOMICAL REASONS I STOPED IN A LAYBY TOOK IT OFF AND TRIED IT AND I'VE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM SINCE AND DONE 10,000 MILES SINCE THEN, HOPE THIS HELPS. Regards Jo

 

[dava]

OK so we assume all the things I've suggested are OK and from what you have said we can eliminate the rear of the vehicle drawing current. Before I go on I still feel any of the following would produce fault codes, but here we go.
Remove drivers side head light, you's down under drive on the sensible side of the road, under the air filter is the turbo boost device, look for vac pipes perished, if it's faulty, codes will show and a simple replace. Now passenger side front, intercoller pipe, two electronic turbo switches here, as well as the MAF, the MAF is worth spraying with some cleaning device, they get oiled up, but again fault codes show. Lastly, both coners of the radiator rub through the wiring harnes, if the rad, harness is not fitted correctly, again simple fix of repairing the harness.

Oh and by the way, 2 inches of snow this morning, could not get the SLK out of the garage!

 

[derek burns]

i have just changed my heater matrex 6h 43m im just a joiner stil no heat picked up water pump about to fit i cannot see where it fits on asume it is the left hand side cant seem to get a diagarm of layout vito cdi 2000 can enyone help

 

[garrick]

Dava,

Again many thanks for this info, and I will pursue your suggestions and tests within the next few days and advise what I find.

Sorry I am a little late in answering you, but I have been opn the other side of the country on business for the last 6 days and have only just got home.

I intend to have my MB mechanic take a look at the 313 sometime next week hopefully, and will advise you of the outcome.

Again many thanks, and enjoy that snow (hehehehe)

Kind Regards

OK so we assume all the things I've suggested are OK and from what you have said we can eliminate the rear of the vehicle drawing current. Before I go on I still feel any of the following would produce fault codes, but here we go.
Remove drivers side head light, you's down under drive on the sensible side of the road, under the air filter is the turbo boost device, look for vac pipes perished, if it's faulty, codes will show and a simple replace. Now passenger side front, intercoller pipe, two electronic turbo switches here, as well as the MAF, the MAF is worth spraying with some cleaning device, they get oiled up, but again fault codes show. Lastly, both coners of the radiator rub through the wiring harnes, if the rad, harness is not fitted correctly, again simple fix of repairing the harness.

Oh and by the way, 2 inches of snow this morning, could not get the SLK out of the garage!

 

[garrick]

Update

I have had the vehicle at my technician's workshops for the last week, and it is still there with no solution to this problem.

Without going in to all of the frustrating details, the following has happened in the last week or so.

The technician has had the vehicle hooked up to the analyser looking speicifcally at the engine system. A fault code 1470 "Pressure Converter Boost Pressure Control - Deviation" came up and after checking performance of various system components, we fitted new "Boost Pressure Control Valve" situated under air inlet box on drivers side (right hand drive model) also checked all vacuum hoses and all A OK, also fitted new "Boost Pressure Sensor Switch" situated intercooler hose on passengers side.

All voltages etc checked and all OK.

The result was the fault code disappeared and the engine revved out over its full rev range. Test drove the vehicle and after maybe 5/10 Kms the engine went back into limp mode. Returned it back to technicians workshop immediately without stopping engine and run engine system analysis again. No Fault Code came up.

Stopped the engine, disconnected the Boost Pressure Sensor Switch to deliberatley try to induce a fault code. Restarted the engine and ran engine system analysis again and fault code came up. Stopped the engine, reconnected the Boost Pressure Sensor Switch, cancelled the fault code in the analysis system memory, restarted the engine and "No Fault Code" again, but engine still in limp mode and will not exceed 3000 RPM.

The analysis system is not recording a system fault even when the engine is obviously in limp mode and limited to 3000 RPM. As already mentioned we have fitted new New "Boost Pressure Control Valve" and "Boost Pressure Sensor Switch".

Also in an effort to try to isolate this extremely frustrating problem, we have checked "Alternator Performance", "Micro Switch fitted to Brake Pedal" and Micro Switch Fitted to the Clutch Pedal" and all are functioning normal and as intended.

PLease note, some of my names/descriptions of the parts may not be the correct names, but I think they describe the bits we hopefully all recognise.

I don't have much hair anyway, but we are now at the stage of complete frustration and tearing what little hair I have out of my head.

It is also at a stage of costing me a bomb.

I would appreciate any help anybody can offer to solve this problem.

Many Thanks in Advance