MB All electric from 2039

[Yugguy]

It's not a simple subject though. You can argue over what percentage IC cars are contributing to global warming, but you can't really argue against the fact that cities would be much more pleasant and healthy places to be if cars were electric.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Average cost of electricity per kWh is 14.37p, and the average gas cost per kWh is 3.80p electric heating even with economy 7 tariffs has never been cheaper than gas, just look at your utility bills.

Average cost to charge out. The underlying costs are far less, the burden being placed on it is the cost of development and installation of that renewable plant.

 

[LostKiwi]

You can dramatically reduce heating costs by using a heat pump. It's cheaper to shift heat than it is to make it.
The other thing about heat pumps is they don't contribute nearly as much to overall heat footprint as you're making outside colder to make inside warmer. When the heat escapes the house the nett balances out to a degree.
As an idea of cost difference between making heat and pumping heat an air source heat pump will provide heat at roughly 3:1. So for every kW of energy consumed by the pump 3kW of heat are brought into the house. Some pumps can improve that to near 5:1 at which point it really is cheaper to heat electrically than by using gas.

 

[Tony Dyson]

Average cost to charge out. The underlying costs are far less, the burden being placed on it is the cost of development and installation of that renewable plant.

But the end user doesn't care how the costs are made up, they care about the bottom line which is Electricity costs over 3.5 times that of Gas!

 

[ajlsl600]

No, it doesn’t. All indications point to the global population hitting around 11bn and then rapidly shrinking. Either way, given current trends of development of agritech, that is sustainable.

Something else here. What we see is that people tend to start giving a shoite about the environment around them when they reach middle class level. The UN defines that as a household income greater than $5000 per annum.

The UN stated in 2000 that it would set itself a challenge to halve global poverty by 2015; that was defined as a household income of greater than $1/ day. That was achieved by 2012. Stunning success.

So, there is good reason to strongly consider that the best way to start making real environmental impact is by helping to make everyone more prosperous.

my experience of the third world near 40 yr, africa. i dont think i see much in the way of global poverty improvement . in a good number of the cities, and certain areas of the same ,maybe from 5 mile out not really. birth control or lack of it and improving health ,life expectancy is now fueling the poverty , as parents struggle to look after and educate their now often all surviving families. maybe the bench marks are now in the wrong place but the situation can by no means be refered to as much of if any success, and the UN view ,from their land cruisers and accomodation blocks has never been much of a bench mark in my experience anyway . turning the developed world into the next permanent group of consumers with the little they have is maybe grand for the importing countries , but not likely to much improve the lot of those in or near poverty, education ,education education will improve the poverty levels as does improved healthcare ,along with another thing in great shortage in the third world . good and accountable governance. improvements in prosperity in the real third world is something that rarely filters down to those in dire need of it, more likely a few dozen more benz and overseas bank accounts for those charged with improving the lot of their own people......

 

[Tony Dyson]

Along the Aire Valley the CEGB (Central Electricity Generating Board) that used to be, decided to build three Coal Fired Power Stations, Ferrybridge, Eggborough and Drax to burn coal from the adjacent Selby Coal fields, everything went swimmingly until the Europeans started complaining about Acid Rain blowing over the North sea at them, then of course Global Warming became an issue, Fast Forward to today and Ferrybridge ‘D’ is already burning combustible household waste and waste timber with plans afoot for a new CCGT (Combined Cycle Gas Turbine) station, Eggborough has just recently shut down it’s Coal Boilers and has similar plans as Ferrybridge for a new CCGT Station and Drax has already converted to renewables in the form of wood pellets.

Now that all sounds fine and dandy, but we, the UK are already net gas importers which means we will have to buy more gas either from Russia and brought into the UK through the European pipeline where all our European “Partners” take first dibs on the available gas and we gat what’s left if any in a cold winter, or we buy more from Qatar, Compressed LNG then frozen onto gas supertankers and shipped all the way to Qatar’s export gas terminal in Port Talbot. The ‘Sustainable’ Biomass fuel burnt at Drax is in fact grown and processed in the Southern States of the USA, transported overland to Baton Rouge where Drax Biomass have built a purpose built deep water port to service the 40 bulk shipping carriers needed to transport the 2.5 Million Tonnes of wood pellets needed annually finally delivered by rail to Drax from Hull. So how does any of this provide us with a truly sustainable and greener alternative to burning coal? Which I might add is still there in bigger quantities than you could ever shake a stick at. And all this paid for in our monthly utility bills. MB Cars may be all electric by 2039 but producing it is still going to be controversial.

 

[ajlsl600]

i think its a case ,often of what without much digging is seen as politically acceptable. when often a good and candid look into the matter is far less acceptable and therefore never happens.

 

[keefysher]

Along the Aire Valley the CEGB (Central Electricity Generating Board) that used to be, decided to build three Coal Fired Power Stations, Ferrybridge, Eggborough and Drax to burn coal from the adjacent Selby Coal fields, everything went swimmingly until the Europeans started complaining about Acid Rain blowing over the North sea at them, then of course Global Warming became an issue, Fast Forward to today and Ferrybridge ‘D’ is already burning combustible household waste and waste timber with plans afoot for a new CCGT (Combined Cycle Gas Turbine) station, Eggborough has just recently shut down it’s Coal Boilers and has similar plans as Ferrybridge for a new CCGT Station and Drax has already converted to renewables in the form of wood pellets.

Now that all sounds fine and dandy, but we, the UK are already net gas importers which means we will have to buy more gas either from Russia and brought into the UK through the European pipeline where all our European “Partners” take first dibs on the available gas and we gat what’s left if any in a cold winter, or we buy more from Qatar, Compressed LNG then frozen onto gas supertankers and shipped all the way to Qatar’s export gas terminal in Port Talbot. The ‘Sustainable’ Biomass fuel burnt at Drax is in fact grown and processed in the Southern States of the USA, transported overland to Baton Rouge where Drax Biomass have built a purpose built deep water port to service the 40 bulk shipping carriers needed to transport the 2.5 Million Tonnes of wood pellets needed annually finally delivered by rail to Drax from Hull. So how does any of this provide us with a truly sustainable and greener alternative to burning coal? Which I might add is still there in bigger quantities than you could ever shake a stick at. And all this paid for in our monthly utility bills. MB Cars may be all electric by 2039 but producing it is still going to be controversial.

Yup, makes you wonder.

Selby brings back memories the 2 x 14 mile conveyors bring coal up the drift to Gascoine Wood brings back memories. Oddly the coal used after Selby was closed was dirty brown from Oz, cos it was cheaper.

 

[Craiglxviii]

my experience of the third world near 40 yr, africa. i dont think i see much in the way of global poverty improvement . in a good number of the cities, and certain areas of the same ,maybe from 5 mile out not really. birth control or lack of it and improving health ,life expectancy is now fueling the poverty , as parents struggle to look after and educate their now often all surviving families. maybe the bench marks are now in the wrong place but the situation can by no means be refered to as much of if any success, and the UN view ,from their land cruisers and accomodation blocks has never been much of a bench mark in my experience anyway . turning the developed world into the next permanent group of consumers with the little they have is maybe grand for the importing countries , but not likely to much improve the lot of those in or near poverty, education ,education education will improve the poverty levels as does improved healthcare ,along with another thing in great shortage in the third world . good and accountable governance. improvements in prosperity in the real third world is something that rarely filters down to those in dire need of it, more likely a few dozen more benz and overseas bank accounts for those charged with improving the lot of their own people......

Don’t confuse Africa with the rest of the developing world. Latin America, China, Thailand, Vietnam- they’re all seeing huge changes in prosperity. I’ve not been to Africa since 2003 so can’t comment; that UN data I’ve heard reported from three different sources, moreover it’s proportionate, double the increase of $1 goes to half the population in question, double that goes to a quarter and so on. Either way around it doesn’t get away from the pretty clear conclusion that the best way to care for the environment is to make everyone wealthy & prosperous enough, enough to keep the spectre of hunger away permanently, so they can afford to use the kind of technology that doesn’t pollute the planet.

 

[LostKiwi]

Don’t confuse Africa with the rest of the developing world. Latin America, China, Thailand, Vietnam- they’re all seeing huge changes in prosperity. I’ve not been to Africa since 2003 so can’t comment; that UN data I’ve heard reported from three different sources, moreover it’s proportionate, double the increase of $1 goes to half the population in question, double that goes to a quarter and so on. Either way around it doesn’t get away from the pretty clear conclusion that the best way to care for the environment is to make everyone wealthy & prosperous enough, enough to keep the spectre of hunger away permanently, so they can afford to use the kind of technology that doesn’t pollute the planet.

Not sure I'd agree with that Craig.
As people get more wealth they demand more manufactured goods and enter the world of consumerism.

 

[ajlsl600]

Don’t confuse Africa with the rest of the developing world. Latin America, China, Thailand, Vietnam- they’re all seeing huge changes in prosperity. I’ve not been to Africa since 2003 so can’t comment; that UN data I’ve heard reported from three different sources, moreover it’s proportionate, double the increase of $1 goes to half the population in question, double that goes to a quarter and so on. Either way around it doesn’t get away from the pretty clear conclusion that the best way to care for the environment is to make everyone wealthy & prosperous enough, enough to keep the spectre of hunger away permanently, so they can afford to use the kind of technology that doesn’t pollute the planet.

i dont raise comment on the developing world outside africa . tho i doubt its much different in many other places but i can say with great confidence that making those there in poverty 100% better off is going to have no effect on the environment there for many generations , they have too many other priorities . and i know enough about the UN operations in that area to pay no heed to any report or survey they hatch at all.
on the environment i do accept that any progress is good progress but sadly in this instance such progress is unlikely to much effect the overall result. there will be a minuscule proportion that may care everyone else will spend any "extra" wealth on a cheaper non environmentally friendly solution to their problem . that even happens here ,where in real terms we are wealthy !!

 

[Craiglxviii]

Not sure I'd agree with that Craig.
As people get more wealth they demand more manufactured goods and enter the world of consumerism.

But it’s what they’re interested in consuming, and how much they’re prepared to spend on it. For instance, disposable plastic carrier bags or woven hessian “bags for life”? Battery farmed chicken or free range? Purse net trawled fish or those from sustainable farms? Cheap petrol cars or expensive EVs? Cheaply built housing or well designed energy-efficient modern types? And so it goes on.

 

[Craiglxviii]

i dont raise comment on the developing world outside africa . tho i doubt its much different in many other places but i can say with great confidence that making those there in poverty 100% better off is going to have no effect on the environment there for many generations , they have too many other priorities . and i know enough about the UN operations in that area to pay no heed to any report or survey they hatch at all.
on the environment i do accept that any progress is good progress but sadly in this instance such progress is unlikely to much effect the overall result. there will be a minuscule proportion that may care everyone else will spend any "extra" wealth on a cheaper non environmentally friendly solution to their problem . that even happens here ,where in real terms we are wealthy !!

I think here, Africa’s very deeply entrenched tribal nature works against it- and I don’t disagree with your observations in the slightest by the way.

 

[davidsl500]

Electricity is far higher in price than gas - to the consumer anyway. That's why it will come as a shock to house buyers in 2025 buying a new home with electric heating systems.

You also have to remember how much the government is subsiding the cost of electricity generation from "eco" sources. For instance the Gov is guaranteeing a unit price of 9.25 pence per KW for Hinckley C Power Station linked to the CPI (Consumer Price Inflation) for 35 years ! That's double the current wholesale price for electricity. I wonder how they will get that back?

It will be the same old story - use heat pumps to reduce your fuel costs so that they can put the unit prices up so that you never see a benefit.

 

[ajlsl600]

Electricity is far higher in price than gas - to the consumer anyway. That's why it will come as a shock to house buyers in 2025 buying a new home with electric heating systems.

You also have to remember how much the government is subsiding the cost of electricity generation from "eco" sources. For instance the Gov is guaranteeing a unit price of 9.25 pence per KW for Hinckley C Power Station linked to the CPI (Consumer Price Inflation) for 35 years ! That's double the current wholesale price for electricity. I wonder how they will get that back?

It will be the same old story - use heat pumps to reduce your fuel costs so that they can put the unit prices up so that you never see a benefit.

in the overall lottery of trying to stay ahead of costs, i believe heat pumps, where insulation is very good, provide the best choice today, mine will be running thru my existing oil system with the oil organised to fire up,only when the heat pump cant cope,doing a self install costs will be just about 4.5k. adding the costs of installer put the payback at about the same as degradation of the system start to involve replacements or costly maintenance, or at least thats how i have calculated the matter . ground source it better,but as usual better costs significantly more.and payback longer.

 

[ajlsl600]

I think here, Africa’s very deeply entrenched tribal nature works against it- and I don’t disagree with your observations in the slightest by the way.

Africa’s very deeply entrenched tribal nature works against it.. A VERY BIG FACTOR, along with, when will the "its the colonialists fault " card finally be consigned to history . in africa,frankly, often an africans worst enemy is simply another african.. however unpopular that might be with the lefties and some , non resident africans

 

[Tony Dyson]

in the overall lottery of trying to stay ahead of costs, i believe heat pumps, where insulation is very good, ... ground source it better,but as usual better costs significantly more.and payback longer.

You've hit the nail on the head again aj 'where insulation is very good', Ground or Air source heat pumps are not easily retrofitted here in the UK for the masses due to complications with noise and available space above ground and below and as for new housing, the developers here have been driven by demand and profits to such a degree the design has been suffering since 1945 and our successive governments have done virtually nothing about it, houses are still being built today by the same methods of construction and design with minimum amounts of insulation since the 1960's and where that differs is because it's simply built of cheaper materials.

District Heating/Cooling has been proven time and time again to be the most efficient and cost effective solution to providing Hot and/or Chilled water to a community, where are they all in the UK?

You can't fight the machine and expect to win, as there are too many stakeholders who will lose out from the utility suppliers and their contractors to the aftermarket suppliers putting things right and upgrading to more acceptable standards, as has been said before, 'If you want a job doing properly, do-it-yourself'.

 

[ajlsl600]

You've hit the nail on the head again aj 'where insulation is very good', Ground or Air source heat pumps are not easily retrofitted here in the UK for the masses due to complications with noise and available space above ground and below and as for new housing, the developers here have been driven by demand and profits to such a degree the design has been suffering since 1945 and our successive governments have done virtually nothing about it, houses are still being built today by the same methods of construction and design with minimum amounts of insulation since the 1960's and where that differs is because it's simply built of cheaper materials.

District Heating/Cooling has been proven time and time again to be the most efficient and cost effective solution to providing Hot and/or Chilled water to a community, where are they all in the UK?

You can't fight the machine and expect to win, as there are too many stakeholders who will lose out from the utility suppliers and their contractors to the aftermarket suppliers putting things right and upgrading to more acceptable standards, as has been said before, 'If you want a job doing properly, do-it-yourself'.

agreed. the ONLY reason why we stay ahead is because we/I do everything ourselfs. and we are fortunate to be able to do so, both in some skill,and resources. and the permanent consumer system of today is playing hell with my ability to judge this so i still have the abilities to resolve matters and shuffle off without getting milked dry by the system.

on uk housing ,iT never ceases to amaze me that a space too small to insert a car can still ,it seems legally be called a garage, frankly its a blxxxy joke. think they get away with it because you "can" push a smart in and close the door ,i cant get any of my last few cars in any of my daugthers garages present or past.

 

[Steve@Avantgarde]

They’ll have gone bust

And that absolute chancer that owns them can dive back into the pool of obscurity where he came from.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Africa’s very deeply entrenched tribal nature works against it.. A VERY BIG FACTOR, along with, when will the "its the colonialists fault " card finally be consigned to history . in africa,frankly, often an africans worst enemy is simply another african.. however unpopular that might be with the lefties and some , non resident africans

Yup. Completely agree.