Merc C180 Sport - Please Help re Camshaft Sprocket

[star]

But the chain can't touch a piston?? And I think its imposible to bend just one valve as its 4 valves per cylinder so if one touches, 2 should touch. Unless they missed it 1st time round?

 

[drmw]

and accidentally bent another valve.

So at least that's one thing that won't be on your bill

 

[three poynted star]

Hi Jen i have been reading this thread with some intrest firstly to bend a valve turning an engine by hand is difficult as the engine would lock up first any mechanic worth there salt would know this by feel. when your car went into them i would have expected them to have done a compresion check first as you said the engine wouldn't start.
If the valves were bent when it arrived at the garage the engine would either be locked solid or would spin over with no compresion very fast also telling them a compresion check is needed changing tyres and oil filters is crazy when a car is not running.There explanation is just plain stupid as regards not having time and priorotising other custormers just tells me they have no cofidence in doing the job.I am a time served mechanic with 30 years experience. You need to see all of the damaged components plus proof that all the parts they say they have changed is available.In my opinion this job should take no more then 16 hrs ie 2 days.Start telling them you need a courtesy car they will soon get it finished.
If what the say is corrrect the must have rebuilt engine torqued head down etc then had to remove it all again sound strange to me.

 

[drmw]

firstly to bend a valve turning an engine by hand is difficult as the engine would lock up first .

Agreed - unless the mechanic in question drags his knuckles on the ground when he walks - this one sounds like a prime candidate. (or should that be a prime ate ??)

If you read this in a book you wouldn't for one minute believe it

 

[grober]

Sorry to say but none of this adds up. This may be due to bad communication rather than anything else but you need to get a knowledgeable third party involved who will safeguard your interests. You are talking about a full top engine rebuild here which will end with a very expensive bill. The advice offered by folks on the forum can help but you need someone knowledgeable with you to actually visit the garage who are repairing the car and talk directly to mechanics involved. The AA or RAC may be able to help as previously suggested otherwise there are independent motor engineers [yellow pages??] who will inspect the car for a fee. Have you no relations,friends, or acquaintances with the necessary background that might help you out here?

 

[three poynted star]

Sorry to say but none of this adds up. This may be due to bad communication rather than anything else but you need to get a knowledgeable third party involved who will safeguard your interests. You are talking about a full top engine rebuild here which will end with a very expensive bill. The advice offered by folks on the forum can help but you need someone knowledgeable with you to actually visit the garage who are repairing the car and talk directly to mechanics involved. The AA or RAC may be able to help as previously suggested otherwise there are independent motor engineers [yellow pages??] who will inspect the car for a fee. Have you no relations,friends, or acquaintances with the necessary background that might help you out here?

Totally agree

 

[jennifer1424]

Thanks for all your help I have to call tom afternoon (Fri) for an update and he said that the valve has been put in the car and they have put the head on and are building the engine back up so he said fingers crossed it works. I will let you's know how I get on tom.

Jen

 

[meanie]

Jeeez!

Along with a few others, it strikes me that someone is taking the wotsit out of you.
Here's what I think has happened;

Having driven the car in with running issues they've plugged their diagnostics in & come up with a fault along the lines of 'implausable signal cam sensor'. This didn't fix the fault & whilst working on it the timing chain has jumped, resulting in the valves hitting the pistons.
At this point it may seem reasonable to conclude that this is your problem - however, I do have an issue with that. My issue is that for the chain to have jumped, even if the tensioner was siezed/faulty but the chain was in good order, it would have to have been rattling horrendously. My argument is that; A) any decent mechanic should have advised you of this rattling before any work was undertaken, & B) this should have provided them with a clue as to any fault codes read off referring to the camshaft sensor.
Although I haven't seen the car, I would hazard a guess also that the chain is pretty badly stretched. Has a new chain been fitted? If not the new tensioner could be operating at pretty much the limit of its travel, & as such it may not be long before you have problems again.
Next; they bent a valve turning it over by hand. That is rubbish - as Star said, it is a 4 valve per cylinder engine which means that the 2 inlet valves in each cylinder work together ( & likewise with the exhaust valves). This makes it impossible to bend only one valve at a time. Understand & remember this, it means that you can prove that you have been told at least one lie! Furthermore, what sort of muppet have they let loose on your car who was able to do this by hand! This in itself is approaching proof of an unacceptable level of competance. If this is what really did happen then they must have timed the engine up incorrectly ( it could be that they don't understand the camshaft advance mechanism).

Good luck!

 

[meanie]

And please, if it ever does get finished, try to find someone with technical understanding to go in with you & help you fight your corner.

Don't be bullied!

 

[jennifer1424]

Thanks for your advice meanie. I now have the car back and it seems to be running fine fingers crossed. My bill is £800 I have only paid him £100 so far but to be honest lots of people are telling me that a handwritten bill that he issued is unacceptable! It's a sheet of paper basically saying H/Set?? £120.00, 8 valves £104.00, labour £480.00 and VAT £105.60 totalling £809.60. I also have a previous bill for £505.21 which includes new tyres, air mass motor, A/L link, sensor, petrol, plugs, oil filter and VAT. He has not provided me with any receipts or a valid bill of some sort its basically writing on a piece of paper! Does anyone know what I should do next to contest this?? I am at my wits end dont know what to do about it but I do know that it certainly doesnt seem right at all!!

 

[drmw]

First thing to get him on his back heel - ask him for his VAT number, which clearly should be available if he's charging you VAT.

Then, from memory without trawling back through the posts, he admitted he had bent a valve when turning over the engine by hand, so his own fault, which in turn meant taking the head off again and you shouldn't have to pay for his mistakes - that will represent a good chunk of the labour costs (doing this twice I mean).

Others more technically adept will no doubt comment shortly with good advice.

On the positive side, you have the car back & you have only paid £100 so far which gives you an unusual upper hand.

The main point to remember is from this moment on, commit everything to writing - contest the bill based at least on the above & post that to him.

Do not pay him any more at this stage - keep the paper trail so if you decide to let him try to take you to the Small Claims Court you will be able to produce your argument, indeed you could counter-claim for loss of use of the car while they pratted about.

And, unless I missed something, they have not addressed what they "diagnosed" first time round, that being the tinming chain slipping - no new chain, no new tensioner on your list of what they say they did, so what makes them think it won't happen again??

 

[television]

No one is allowed to charge VAT if not VAT registered, and Any VAT bill must have the VAT registration number on it.

This is a Customs and Excise thing and boy they are red hot on this ,,I used to dread them coming to me

 

[jennifer1424]

Brill guys thanks very much for your help again, this has been a total nightmare from the start. I am tempted now to try and sell the car and buy a new one now as I feel as if the problems may come back again I will update you all soon as going down to see him tomorrow afternoon.

 

[drmw]

and don't under any circumstances send them the bill back - take a copy & use that in your letters - keep the original - it's valuable if they are trying to charge VAT but not registered. You have been protective with their identity but I'm sure if you PM someone who says they can find out, they will be able to establish at least whether they are VAT registered or not

 

[jennifer1424]

Hi yeah the garage is L&A Motors in Haig Street in Greenock. I have the bills here wil hold onto them defo.

 

[television]

It is as I feared,,you need a number to see if it is valid,I am still checking

 

[drmw]

Hi yeah the garage is L&A Motors in Haig Street in Greenock. I have the bills here wil hold onto them defo.

They are not registered at Companies House - that in itself means little other than they are not a limited company, but I can't find any information anywhere about them.

The rules on VAT from this perspective are quite simple.

In order to charge VAT, they must be VAT registered and they must have the VAT number printed on all stationary, including invoices. The invoice should also show the breakdown - net, vat & gross amounts (eg £100 work, £15 VAT, total £115 and NOT just £115 including VAT, full stop)

IF they are at it and IF you told the Revenue & Customs, the proverbial ton of bricks would land on Haig Street, number 7.

That (it is a couple of big "if"s though), plus the self inflicted damage by them plus the apparent lack of detail in terms of what caused the problem, how they cured it & how they have prevented it from happening again gives you a pretty stong bargaining postion!

Do please keep us posted!

 

[jennifer1424]

Brill thanks, I will keep you's posted. My next plan is to construct a letter and ask for an invoice with the breakdown of the work carried out including VAT and also a diagnosis of what was wrong with the car in the first instance.

Do you think this is the next wise step to take?

 

[meanie]

As already stated, the 'original' fault has not been addressed - that is, the cause of the timing chain jumping.
No mention of the original fault or what they found on the invoice?
Get it checked by somebody who knows what they are doing, & maybe ask for a report, or at least observations, whilst they are at it.
If they throw up any issues, at that point get an independant engineer to inspect & report.
Print off these pages as it may help to prove that they knew sod all about what they were at, and that there was a valve timing issue, if needs be.
Don't pay any more money yet.

 

[jennifer1424]

I wont thanks. I will go down tom and ask them for a proper invoice in letterhead etc and the diagnosis first and let you's know how I get on