Mint 190E - couple annoying problems, advice please!

[drainaudio]

HI All - new here and looking for some advice.
Just been through all the pain of really having my recently purchased L reg (Aug 93) 190E 2.0 (bought it cause I love this model and this particular car looks really smart) gone through from top to bottom at George Fraser MB Specialists here in London. Anything even slightly questionable was replaced, high capacity Bosch battery, new shocks, various suspension/steering components, 5 new tyres and had a full 96,000mile service including replacement of all filters and fluids - in total this was not exactly cheap by any stretch of the imagination. Still it's 12 years old so I expected a fairly high initial investment to have it in absolute A1 condition. Visually, it could be a 2 or 3 year old car.

Seems to be running extremely nice every switch, function, bulb etc works, underbody and engine bay is very clean bit of corrosion here and there as you would expect at this age, paint and interior are very close to mint but there are a few problems that are proving very frustrating at this stage.
I've mentioned these items at George Fraser MB (who have been pretty good overall) but they just keep telling me the car is great and there is no problem.

I paid close to Parker's ceiling price for this model (not really a concern it's the car I wanted) - it is Silver and Black, has all the LE options (tho not technically an LE) and in addition, spoiler, factory air con, remote central locking/alarm, electric aerial, MB alloys etc. Very high spec'd for a 190E no doubt and I have been able to confirm it is all as it left the factory other than the alarm that was fitted by Alan Day Mercedes at point of original delivery. Has full service history (85% MB dealers and specialists).
I've fitted a 2005 Alpine glide touch swing face CD player and iPod adaptor - iPod resides in glovebox (both fitted professionally). I also installed 2005 Infinity Kappa speakers both front and rear as they fitted into the original holes. Audio set-up is actually really nice, very happy with the result.

Mercedes experts please help me with you experience and advice here in terms of my frustrations...

General: Engine runs smooth with good power and no odd noises, doesn't use any oil, cooling system and air con are all perfect, stops very fast in a perfectly straight line, steering and suspension are fantastic although the company that did the wheel alignment can't seem to get the steering wheel straight after their 3rd attempt, it's still a few degrees to the left in a straight line......very annoying.

Problems:
Auto Trans changes smoothly and quietly, however it seems to change occasionally with a bit of a clunk or shunt into 3rd that feels possibly more from the rear-end (diff seems fine no whine or odd noises - very quiet in fact) - occurs if I'm in traffic driving gently at aprox 25Mph or sometimes easing off the gas. If I'm accelerating the gear changes are always smooth and responsive - only seem to have this problem when being very gentle with the acceleration in traffic - Could this be worn flex disks? I've seen info on the web that seems to point in this direction.

The exhaust needs the Catalytic converter replacing - I can certainly hear the element rattling a little. The engine revs beautifully when stationary but I get a low humming sound (not a drive-train vibration) coming from the car as it pulls away at about 1200Rpm then it revs beautifully again - really sounds like the exhaust has a problem. Had a look 2day and noticed where the pipe joins the Cat is all cracked - this must be the problem I assume? Exhaust overall looks a little too coroded on an otherwise pretty much pristine underbody. Should I just replace the whole exhaust tip to tail?
Does it need to be genuine MB? Bosol exhaust do a full system for about half the price of the £700 I've been quoted for the Cat.

Thanks for reading this long post any advice and knowledge would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers, Geoff.

 

[joe bloggs]

Sorry for quick answer.

Clunk, yes mine does it too, its just the backlash of the diff, the gearbox occasionally catches it out by changing into a higher gear while on a slight overrun.

Exhaust cat lasts for ages, are you sure its not just the tin heatshield rattling and looking corroded, threw mine away ages ago. watch the tailpipe though, they can drop down at the forward end when badly corroded..this catapults it into the rear bumper when it hits the road..usually knocking the bumper clean off.

 

[woodturner-fran]

I recently replaced the cat on my e200. Bought a spurious one for ?300 as opposed to the ?1100 that MB wanted.

The CAT fitted with a little difficulty that I overcame but is a bit noisier than the original was. This is esp noticeable until the engine is hot, after that shes AOK.

Thats the price you pay for going spurious, I suppose.

Definitely check the heatshield and also, watch that joint - get a weld on it if you can rather than have it break when youre driving along!

Fran

 

[drainaudio]

Hi guys,
Thanks for the replies.
Took my 190E for a good long motorway drive today - she's very smooth and quiet far better than many much newer cars that I've driven.
Cat is definitely on the way out you can hear the element and join between pipe and Cat is all cracked. Not sure about using non-Merc parts, there are no aftermarket parts on it as yet.
As for the diff backlash, are you sure this is normal? Neither the gearbox or the diff whine, all very quiet indeed. I can't believe that MB would have intended the drivetrain to be like this? I would certainly consider getting another vehicle if this is the case - I find it even more annoying now that I've felt how "new" the rest of the car feels on the road.
Thanks, Geoff Kakoschke.

 

[sunking101]

No, your car won't have had any drivetrain backlash from new. It could be a number of things. When I had my 190E I replaced the diff but still had the problem, also replaced the prop couplings, uj's and half shafts to no avail. In the end it turned out to be the half chassis bushes/mounts that were causing the problem. The cause of your clunking could be any of the above or a combination - wear affects every component in the drivetrain over the years. As the others have said though, it isn't terminal but it sounds like it's annoying you as much as it did me! Depends how much you're prepared to pay for perfection....

 

[joe bloggs]

No they did it from new, the diffs used to whine from new also, we used to change loads on new cars - until the guys from germany came over to see why, and to tell us this was normal (if you have ever driven a manual version you will know what a clunking drivetrain sounds like) have a look at the bushes mentioned, but if ok then leave it, new diff will still clunk.

 

[drainaudio]

Thanks for the replies guys.
Joe Bloggs, I'd just like to mention again the trans and rear end are both very quiet. I know the 190E is known for having diff whine but mine doesn't.
The problem I have feels like someone giving a bit of a kick to the rear end mostly when changing down a gear during times of gentle accelaration. I can't imagine this is normal for a 190E - and after researching feel either the flex disks or subframe bushing is the culprit.
If this kick/clunk or whatever you'd call it is normal then I can't imagine why anyone would have a bought one of these new. If I'd paid the original dealer the £24,000 (it's aprox this with the options, don't have the document to hand) back in 1993 and the car had this issue I would have been furious.
Cheers, Geoff.

 

[sunking101]

Joe Bloggs, are we talking about the same thing here? I'm on about a nasty "definitely not right" clunk in the drivetrain coming from the rear. I had it fixed and it went away, it certainly wasn't a standard feature. My diff didn't whine either, the old one just had a slight rumble at speed. My Land Rover suffered the same problem with a clunky drivetrain, I replaced the uj's and it went away. Very few people would be happy with such an arrangement.

 

[drainaudio]

HI Sunking101,
Sounds like you had the same problem as I do......and considering my 190E could pass for a very new car in terms of its condition it's incredibly frustrating. Yes you can feel the trans shift gear, I like to feel this tho it's smooth and quiet and I know what gear I'm in. I would much rather this than the new style boxes where you don't even feel the changes at all.
As for the diff it's quiet, quiet, quiet. I'm a professional audio engineer so I have a knack for being able to listen to and recognise sounds. I really have to perk my ears up with all the windows closed to even hear much noise at all inside the 190E while driving, the actual road noise is greater than anything else and with a set of Continental Premium Contact tyres the road noise is very minimal - this is why I like MB and German cars in general, they are built for those of us who appreciate good engineering.
However, out of the blue I get my kick in the rear clunk, jolt, whatever you want to call it always for the most part during gentle acceleration or deceleration - if this is how a 190E was designed then it's officially for sale and I'm straight out the door with my switch card to get an Audi A3.
The car is going back into George Fraser on Friday and they will check and replace as necessary - both flex disks and sub frame bushings. I'm sure it's not any other part of the drive train, as I don't have any rumbling or vibration etc.
On another note - Cat needs to be replaced as it is rattling very slightly.
Figured I might as well do the entire exhaust:
Genuine Merc inc fitting aprox £1400!!
Same manufacturer, same assembly line no Merc label aprox £600!!
Now that is just silly!!
George Fraser came up with these prices and will give me a written guarantee that the 2 systems are identical other than the badge.
Will be the first non-genuine parts used but.....what a difference in price!!
Cheers, Geoff.

 

[sunking101]

Well if the rest of the car is sweet and you can afford the repairs then I'd say go for it. I was very happy with my 190E after I'd got rid of the clunking! As for using aftermarket parts, I'd stick to Merc for the crucial bits but things like exhausts and cats I'd certainly go for a quality non-branded unit to save big bucks. It doesn't make sense to throw money away needlessly.

 

[joe bloggs]

Not all 190's suffered from the whine, just too many for the factory to warrant us replacing diffs, yes we had loads of customer issues in the days before buy-backs so the Germans told us 'it was a characteristic' the drivetrain was also a bit slack and clunky, not so bad when brand new, in fairness yours could be something else, Gearbox doughnut, or the rubber damper just forward of this, check them both for excessive slack, also the rear doughnut at the diff, although they give less trouble. Other trouble points often were poorly replaced diff pinion seals (common fault), some fitters would do them with the diff in place and simply do up the locknut afterwards, messing up all the settings, this usually produced lots of whine and rumble, which in your case sounds ok.

My 190e has new everything, watever it needs it gets, including 100% of the best maintenance, sadly the drivetrain still exibits the odd clunk when the autobox changes up/down.

 

[PChinnery]

Gear box Clunk

I have just changed the head gasket on my C200 96, after doing so I had the same problem with the gearbox, which suddenly appeared. After lots of investigation tracked this down to a vacuum tube that runs from the inlet manifold to the nearside of the gearbox. I had inadvertantley pulled this tube out of the gearbox while moving the manifold out of the way. The cars are different models but not that big a differance in age and mine is the older style gearbox. I was very supprised that a 1/8" tube could make such a big differance to the auto G/B operation.

Good luck

Paul

 

[Edd]

Geoff, how's your car now ? btw i had the same prob n changing the uj's fixed it just like sunking101.

 

[drainaudio]

HI..
The 190E (Betty) is a source of joy and frustration at the moment.. On one hand she is absolutely mint (I'll post some photos soon) and just looks better and better as I do all the little things such as replacing grill inserts, bonnet badges, screwless EU plates (easy and a much more smooth modern look) and get right into all the areas that just need cleaning and refreshing on a well looked after 12 year old car to really bring it up to almost new. George Fraser say she's one of the best 190E's they've seen and certainly for the most part they've done a really superb job of going through her with a fine toothed comb and ensuring she is absolutely mecanically A1 in every respect using all genuine MB parts. However, I have a new exhaust system that has a faulty Cat - sounds like it going to rattle itself to pieces until the car reaches normal operating temperature in the morning and the diff backlash is still there. It went back to GF this week to have both problems (the only 2 things stopping this from being a perfect car) resolved and it came back to me exactly the same. booooooring!!!
So, I guess next week it goes back again..
The one thing making me smile though (especially as I will drive London to Edinburgh 2moro) is that the engine loves to be driven hard and considering it's only a 2.0 it kicks butt - I don't know where the rumour that 190E's are sluggish ever came from?? Maybe if you don't look after these engines they suffer? I've driven plenty of different cars over the years from big Mercs to Mustangs to little Toyotas and Renaults. The 190E 2.0 has plenty of get up and go if you want, certainly the power/economy ratio is very reasonable and the actual quality of ride and braking is superb.
Now if i can just get these 2 annoying problems sorted out before I start tearing out my hair!!
Cheers, Geoff.