Motorway lower speed limit trial

[Craiglxviii]

But then again how confident are you with the figures you suggest, you say 2 to 2.5 tons and then link to the industries own figures that suggest 5.6 tons ?

heck 1.5 tons of steel stock out of the furnace already has a carbon footprint of 2.7 tons, and that is before the car facory is built along with all the machinery to turn it into a car plus all those plasticy bits

I'm sticking with my estimate of 12 tons that lies neatly between the car industries 5.6 ton and the guardians 17 ton

Show me the industry figure I linked to?

The CO2 figure for steel you show is highly misleading. 2.3t of CO2 per ton of steel FROM ORE; 0.2t of CO2 per ton of steel from recyc. You can see the benefits of using recycled steel as far as possible- which the industry tries to do due to the CO2 value being directly linked to energy input, directly proportional to the utility bill.

Hang on, we are now including the energy cost of build of the assembly plant? What are we normalising against? Should we throw in the energy cost of build of the national grid too, the renewable power generation plant installed to provide green power while we’re at it? Where does that line get drawn? It has to be an apples to apples comparison. How about the cost for extraction of battery raw materials? That’s pretty grotty.

Ok, you stick to your own figures. I’ve provided fairly unambiguous fact and data; for half a decade I worked amongst other roles as an analyst in this exact area studying this exact subject. I have a fairly good idea of the ins and outs of it

 

[Doors]

Show me the industry figure I linked to?
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I can't seem to find it? sorry, I must be going a little mad
I'm sure there was a link earlier from someone to the "Low Carbon Vehicle Partnership" which you mention in the post below.

here is the page I went to that has the 24 ton figue and the production costs of 5.6 ton
https://www.lowcvp.org.uk/assets/workingdocuments/MC-P-11-15a Lifecycle emissions report.pdf

Those ones are taken by multiplying 24 by 9%

The 24 ton figure comes from the Low Carbon Vehicle Partnership, which is an industry body. That figure is also fairly close to others I’ve seen in different studies. Either way, 20 tons, 24 tons or even 50 tons total CO2 emissions still puts the manufacturing fraction significantly below Doors’ estimate above.

 

[Doors]

Be aware that you’ll likely see negligible improvement over the engine’s running in period, mainly because they are so finely machined nowadays that there isn’t such a period any more.

Like you, I have to undertake potentially countrywide journeys at potentially short notice. What better to do them in than an S Class platform? And, if one can find an engine that never struggles, that’s a match made in heaven...

Had a look through the mpg records for our last car (2 litre vag diesel (the cheat one)

Two charts from the same data, the first showing each individual fill (lots of variance with seasonal fluctuations)
The second showing as close as possible a rolling 365 day total (we did 10k in first year hence that is when the line starts)

Certainly appears to be improvements up to about 15,000 miles.
Need to wait another couple of years to see if the merc does the same.

MPG v Miles

 

[Craiglxviii]

Had a look through the mpg records for our last car (2 litre vag diesel (the cheat one)

Two charts from the same data, the first showing each individual fill (lots of variance with seasonal fluctuations)
The second showing as close as possible a rolling 365 day total (we did 10k in first year hence that is when the line starts)

Certainly appears to be improvements up to about 15,000 miles.
Need to wait another couple of years to see if the merc does the same.

MPG v Miles

Here is the chart showing my then- brand new E220 CDI BlueTec from 2.7k to 24k. The average was really improved by two very long trips at the end of ownership. As you can see there is no step change or hockey- sticking of the line at any point

 

[Frontstep]

A trip to Liverpool Docks shows the reality of the recycling industry, millions of tonnes of scrap await some very tired old ships to take to places where environmental standards are let's say rudimentary.

The run off from these mountains is a ghastly soup going presumably into the Mersey and wherever.

A queue of large trucks dispense mixed scrap with a liberal sprinkling of pollutants into the processing plants.

Its not somewhere Greta is likely to champion.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Some fact and data from Germany, in particular the imposed design standards to the manufacturers from the Federal government:

https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/t...oduct-stewardship-waste-management/scrap-cars

85% of the car must be reused and recycled; 95% of the car in total must be recycled. Right now Germany is recycling 97% of the scrap metal from its used cars handed in for scrapping.

 

[M80]

Some fact and data from Germany, in particular the imposed design standards to the manufacturers from the Federal government:

https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/t...oduct-stewardship-waste-management/scrap-cars

85% of the car must be reused and recycled; 95% of the car in total must be recycled. Right now Germany is recycling 97% of the scrap metal from its used cars handed in for scrapping.

Some fact and data from Germany, in particular the imposed design standards to the manufacturers from the Federal government:

https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/t...oduct-stewardship-waste-management/scrap-cars

85% of the car must be reused and recycled; 95% of the car in total must be recycled. Right now Germany is recycling 97% of the scrap metal from its used cars handed in for scrapping.

Some years ago they decommissioned the Viking Alpha platform.
If memory serves 95% of the platform was recycled.
There was a fair bit of asbestos, they would do well to recycle that.
Plastic coated panels in the accommodation, some of that might well be recyclable.
Gotta wonder how they would extract the many piles into the seabed.
I'm sure they didn't just cap off the subsea pipework that routed from many satellite platforms.
Miles and miles of cabling, rubber coated, plastic coated. Gotta wonder what percentage of that is realistically recycled.

It seems that the produce of the bull is a great assistant in the process, especially when compiling figures for pr purposes.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Some years ago they decommissioned the Viking Alpha platform.
If memory serves 95% of the platform was recycled.
There was a fair bit of asbestos, they would do well to recycle that.
Plastic coated panels in the accommodation, some of that might well be recyclable.
Gotta wonder how they would extract the many piles into the seabed.
I'm sure they didn't just cap off the subsea pipework that routed from many satellite platforms.
Miles and miles of cabling, rubber coated, plastic coated. Gotta wonder what percentage of that is realistically recycled.

It seems that the produce of the bull is a great assistant in the process, especially when compiling figures for pr purposes.

I’ve seen cable recycling, it’s a really efficient process. Subsea stuff is a bit more awkward but that’s mainly stripping off the armour.

However... a drilling platform is not a car. One can always find exceptions to any rule, but when you have (certainly in Germany) a closed loop steel recycling system, where the big steel producers are involved early in process- and the process is vastly more profitable for them- then you can be pretty sure it’s followed for the most part.
Plastics recycling is rather different, that involves millions of tons of regrind going to China & Vietnsm to be pulled apart by millions of women with tweezers into individual colour/ grade piles, then rebagged and resold into Europe/ wherever.

 

[M80]

Of little importance it was a production platform, drillers would be towed to some remote location for recycle. So the more advanced world can ignore the abuse of individuals (pretty much enslaved) who carry out those activities.

I accept the recycle industry is now massive, I accept it is highly technical, and greatly efficient.
I also accept that big business re using material recovered does indicate that an efficiency in that it is cheaper than creating such from virgin materials.

My point was that the figures given us lesser knowledgeable types are more for pr than to accurately reflect the truth. Business finding more cost effective methods, like sending to India, or Bangladesh for dismantle, doesn't always mean better for the environment.

The comparison here as far as I see is the carbon footprint created by a new cars production and if that is less than that saved by removing a reasonably serviceable car from existence due to it being less efficient in use, over its remaining expected life.
For this we need trust worthy figures that have the bias of the industry producing those figures removed.

 

[sl500amgsport]

So should the speed limit be lowered in light of this information ?

Mercedes SL500 R231

 

[Timeandleisure]

So should the speed limit be lowered in light of this information ?

Mercedes SL500 R231

Let’s have a vote!!!

 

[Craiglxviii]

So should the speed limit be lowered in light of this information ?

Mercedes SL500 R231

...... NO

 

[Timeandleisure]

Nope

 

[M80]

I abstain as my clicking cruise at 58mph means my saying yes just looks like I want everyone to follow my lead.

But I'm driving a barn door into a gale. If I dropped my speed to 40mph I would save even more fuel (and so reduce my polluting), but I do like to make some progress.

Anyway this'll make bugger all difference in the real world that these theorist return to occasionally.

 

[Timeandleisure]

I abstain as my clicking cruise at 58mph means my saying yes just looks like I want everyone to follow my lead.

But I'm driving a barn door into a gale. If I dropped my speed to 40mph I would save even more fuel (and so reduce my polluting), but I do like to make some progress.

Anyway this'll make bugger all difference in the real world that these theorist return to occasionally.

Thx for your vote

 

[sl500amgsport]

I say no as it is too dangerous, the only way to stick to it is with cruise on and the traffic will bottleneck....

Mercedes SL500 R231

 

[Blobcat]

Of little importance it was a production platform, drillers would be towed to some remote location for recycle. So the more advanced world can ignore the abuse of individuals (pretty much enslaved) who carry out those activities.

I accept the recycle industry is now massive, I accept it is highly technical, and greatly efficient.
I also accept that big business re using material recovered does indicate that an efficiency in that it is cheaper than creating such from virgin materials.

My point was that the figures given us lesser knowledgeable types are more for pr than to accurately reflect the truth. Business finding more cost effective methods, like sending to India, or Bangladesh for dismantle, doesn't always mean better for the environment.

The comparison here as far as I see is the carbon footprint created by a new cars production and if that is less than that saved by removing a reasonably serviceable car from existence due to it being less efficient in use, over its remaining expected life.
For this we need trust worthy figures that have the bias of the industry producing those figures removed.

Quite a few cruise ships gone for recycling recently, India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, China and Turkey are the main breakers...
They run them up the beach at a fair speed then start cutting them up. No dry-docks used in the process...
I'm confident that all the necessary paperwork is correctly filled out and submitted and all environmental controls are adhered to...

 

[davemercedes]

Reduce the limit... NO!

 

[Doors]

Some years ago they decommissioned the Viking Alpha platform.
If memory serves 95% of the platform was recycled.
There was a fair bit of asbestos, they would do well to recycle that.
Plastic coated panels in the accommodation, some of that might well be recyclable.
Gotta wonder how they would extract the many piles into the seabed.
I'm sure they didn't just cap off the subsea pipework that routed from many satellite platforms.
Miles and miles of cabling, rubber coated, plastic coated. Gotta wonder what percentage of that is realistically recycled.

It seems that the produce of the bull is a great assistant in the process, especially when compiling figures for pr purposes.

95% by what measure ? weight ?
just recycle the steel on an offshore platform and that could be very do-able.
95% sounds fantastic but they may well have had that weighed in down the scrappies without prompting.

 

[Doors]

As to the limit - If it is only for relatively short sections in built up areas then it is worth a trial to see if it does reduce pollution levels, I suspect it will.
As for motorways in general, I would raise max speed to 80 then have it strictly enforced with hidden and average speed cameras (no 10% + a bit more for luck) I'm sure some will shout 'revenue raising' and that would be fine with me, if only all taxation could be optional.