New here...and running E300TD on biodiesel

[EekoGeek]

short term gain, but long term pain ? my friend is the manager of "merlin" diesels in preston. when i visited his set up to cost solenoids, heaters etc for my vegi conversion, he told me to stay clear, unless i was moving the car on in 20,000 miles or so. they specialise in diesel pump renovation and injector renovation, he explained that the viscosity and specific gravity of bio fuels, even the good ones put massive stresses on the pumps and injectors, especially in winter months, bit like your heart pumping porridge instead of blood.

on top of this poor trade off you have a very smelly exhaust, don't think this will not bother you, on no wind days you will not like it in stationary traffic.

if your o rings in your fuel system are merc std. nitrile phenoilic, then you will eventually have to replace them with viton, or suffer sucking air in cold weather, poor or no starting.

in my opinion unless you can obtain the vegi for free, and are not concerned about the mechanical longevity of your merc, DON'T DO IT ! herbiemercman.

Hi Herbiemercman

Good to have some debate and get some expert insight! What were you planning to use - SVO, WVO or biodiesel? It would be interesting to know whether your friend made any distinction. 'Biofuels' seem to vary hugely in viscocity and low temperature performance depending on what the oil is and how it has been processed (or not). Often they are talked about interchangeably making it hard to know what (if anything) is OK for a given car. It's easy for manufacturers and experts to err on the side of caution and caution against all biofuels ... and it certainly concerns me which is why I'm trying biodiesel on an 11 yo car with low expectations of resale value!

Regarding the smell. I haven't experienced the joys of biodiesel in high summer yet so will withold full judgement ... but based on experience so far I'm dubious. No-one I've come across has noticed at all. It's only if you stand them behind the car with the engine running that you get a grin and an 'oh yeah!'

Regarding the O rings. This seems to be a genuine issue. (Any experience Roadhog?) I asked the garage to check these over and will do so again at every opportunity. My understanding is that they are cheap (easy?) to replace if spotted... but could be a breakdown job if one goes.

I'm happy to be the guinea pig!

Simon

 

[roadhog]

No negative experience on fuel lines or seals during near 50k miles of use of SVO in varying mixes, often 100%. I have read tales of leaking seals, perhaps I've just been lucky for once. By all accounts, were they to fail, it wouldn't stop your journey there and then. From my (limited) research on the subject I gather that the constituents of the veg oil cause swelling in previously dried out seals thereby creating the leak. Replacement, if required, is cheap and easy enough. I've never had any problems starting, air in fuel or similar. For very cold ambient temperatures I mix pump diesel but as a lot of my drives are 360 mile commutes I get away with very high % SVO.

As for the smell, it's a constant source of amusement for me. Yes it does smell, no it's not unpleasant (to me). SVO burned at the correct temperature gives off a smell not unlike a BBQ. I've come to distinguish between brands/blends, Soya smells differently to Rapeseed oil. I can imagine that WVO sourced from fish fryers and not filtered properly would have a fishy smell to it but can't confirm. It's fun when you get a convertible behind you in traffic, you can literally see the noses twitching trying to locate the source. MOT times are equally amusing usually resulting in the tester questioning his equipment until he realises it's not running on diesel.

I overtook a colleague in his 190 on a motor way a few days ago and received a text saying 'You stink'. That made me chuckle but as has been said before I'm easily amused.

Herbie's comments re the injector pumps have some merit although I'd be interested to hear whether the diesel man was commenting on Mercs (inline pump) specifically or diesel cars (usually rotary pumps) in general. By all accounts rotary pumps don't like it up them. Veg oil that is.

 

[dieselman]

Mercedes engines shouldn't suffer with seal problems as they are fitted with PTFE (Viton) seals as standard, as opposed to Nitrile.

The in line pumps fitted to OM605/6 engines should be able to pump without issue but rotary pumps are less strong.
The main issue with OM606 engines seems to be the turbocharged ones suffer from ring sticking, presumably due to the higher combustion temperatures caramlising the veg oil. When you consider the combustion gasses can reach 800+C on a good fast uphill it's not surprising.
Some people have remidied stuck rings by using a water spray into the intake for about 20 miles.

 

[HERBIEMERCMAN]

ok, if you are hooked on mpg then you must consider "red" diesel, this is how you do it without much chance of being caught. i have not done it as i do not need to, if i needed to i would do it. with a simple gadget and some sence in where and how you buy the stuff you can half your mpg cost.

first of all you get hold of a short length of brass or copper pipe, 1.5 inch diam, you then flare the end to fit snugly into the fuel filling pipe so it looks like the original fuel filling pipe. you then attach a two foot length of poly plastic pipe with the tank end blanked off, you then fill this with white diesel, approx. 2 lit.
the HMCE boys use a quick test which is a plastic bottle with a clear plastic pipe placed into your fuel tank, they are always in a hurry and if the 3 mm dia. pipe comes up with clear diesel fuel you will be moved on. most people who have been caught have been reported by somone who was aware of what they were doing.

the next most important thing is to purchase fuel from a friend who has tanks, your local farmer / builder etc, they like cash. . or if you must get it from the oil supplier take 5 gall drums, if you take your car and put red into it you will be videoed by the HMCE BOYS and stopped some time later.

this is not for everyone,some people would get upset every time they had a police car behind them, and they are not interested.

the EEC have even stopped boating people using red as the derrogation ended in november last year. the get out on boats is that you are allowed two tanks on board, one for propullsion and one for heating and power generation, so boat owners will have a very small tank for one and a large tank for the other. so your merc will have 2 lit in your pipe and 17 galls of red in your tank, you will feel good as you will be enjoying the equivalent of 60 mpg.keep receipts for fuel, ask your friends for them as well, for if you are caught the fine is based on how much you have used.most fines are circa £500, 2nd offence is loss of vehicle. good luck. herbiemercman.

 

[roadhog]

Stuff on breaking the law

All well and good but running veg oil is totally legal.

 

[Iain the gadget]

First post here... so pls excuse any gaffs!

I've been reading back through old posts on the pros and cons of biodiesel and thought I would add my experience so far.

I bought my '98 w210 E300TD estate last September specifically to run it on biodiesel converted from waste cooking oil. Previously I have owned a Prius and an bi-fuel (LPG) Volvo and the Merc is my latest adventure in low carbon (low guilt?) personal mobility - now with extra space and oomph!

I buy my biodiesel from Rye BioFuels in East Sussex http://www.ryebiofuels.co.uk/ who run a 'closed loop' system where they supply local restaurants and chippies with cooking oil and then collect the waste oil and chemically process it to produce biodiesel.

Reputable biodiesel manufacturers claim their products can be used in any diesel engine without problems or the need for modification. However, web experiences vary, as does the quality of biodiesel! The wisdom-of-the-web does suggest that older Merc diesels with indirect injection (pre 1999 and the switch to CDI engines) will run on almost anything. So, I am hoping that by using 'proper' biodiesel (as opposed to SVO or WVO or homemade hooch) on a tolerant engine will be a reliable combination.

Shortly after buying the car I got it serviced at Lookers MB in Pevensey(cheaper than Volvo!... and got a clean bill of health) and then started switching over to using biodiesel by topping up the tank with biodiesel until it was running on pure biodiesel (aka b100). After about 800 miles I got the fuel filters changed - a recommended precaution as biodiesel is a stronger solvent than diesel and so can clean the crud from the fuel lines and potentially block the filter.

5,000 miles on and I have had no problems so far running purely on biodiesel. The engine runs more quietly and smoothly and I have noticed no discernable loss of power. (Some biodiesel enthusiasts claim more power/efficiency.) A quick check on mpg worked out at just over 30 - I'll check this again over a longer period. The book figure for the car when new is 33mpg I believe... so this seems at least as good as I would expect. Starting in the cold (often cited as a biodiesel issue) has been no problem. Hastings managed -6 C a couple of nights ago and the car started no problem. (Rye Biofuels claim they have tested for cold starting down to -12... probably more than adequate for us southern softies)

The pump price is 90p/litre so I am saving about £15 per tank at the moment compared with fossil-diesel.

Best of all in my opinion - and I suspect that a mercedes owners forum isn't natural habitat for eco warriers - I reckon that the big beast is one of the greenest cars on the road: Buying second hand, the carbon footprint of my purchase is tiny compared with a new car (an oft overlooked fact when people change their car for a new 'greener' model). On the road it's running on a waste product derived from rapeseed oil (nb these plants were grown to make cooking oil, not biofuel) and therefore part of the carbon cycle. The 'climate-changing' carbon comes only from making the original cooking oil (agricultural inputs, processing, transport) and then making the biodiesel (processing and transport). These are generally reckoned to give waste biodiesel a carbon footprint 20% the size of fossil diesel.

So, if my 3 litre guzzler is pumping out c. 200gCO2/km but only 20% of this is adding to carbon in the atmosphere then I calculate that it's comparitive emissions are 40gCO2/km ... or about half those of a Prius.

.... or is there something wrong with my maths?!

Anyway, I'm enjoying feeling smug as I 'waft' along on cruise control, ensconced in leather seats, enjoying the growl of the V6 ... and saving the planet!

.....I'll let you know if I break down

Simon

Straight 6!

 

[roadhog]

Straight 6!

Thank you, hadn't noticed.

 

[Iain the gadget]

Thank you, hadn't noticed.

Apologies!
I must read all posts before commenting!:Oops:

 

[HERBIEMERCMAN]

hi roadhog, your right vegi is legal, like our government, the bankers etc. however on reflection i now think my thread on the red was a bit out of charachter for me, i'd had a pint or two and was a bit off tune. i have now decided not to post on my tips for stealing cars. herbiemercman.

 

[mbestate]

Chip Fat is a waste of time

I have just done the math. Local Bio is £1.10 per ltr or Morrisons derv is £1.14. Filling up saves les than £3 to stink like a chip shop. Keep it for stingy people who want to save the planet. The Sun will go out in 500 million years anyhow.

 

[turbopete]

i had a citroen zx 1.9d and i had a friend who made biodiesel from the waste veg oil they collected as it was part of his job. i ran the zx on the biodiesel he made, but i DID notice a loss of power, particularly towards the top of the rev band (it lost 10mph on top speed, according to the speedo) and mpg did suffer slightly, but it was outweighed by the saving i was making. i also noticed that it would splutter into life instead of starting cleanly, particularly on cold mornings (fine when the engine had warmed a little) and every so often, missfire when idling until the fuel heater started to thin the fuel by warming it. other than that the car was faultless the whole 10k miles i owned it for (2nd car for work!)

 

[Chippychap]

If anyone is interested in titration for SVO then the following link seems to cover it.
Nope, didn't really understand it tbh.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#titsvo

I wonder what the current price difference is?

 

[snoopy20]

I run mine on biodiesel which is 80ppl. It performs as good as diesel and gives less smoke.

 

[Chippychap]

I run mine on biodiesel which is 80ppl. It performs as good as diesel and gives less smoke.

Is that from a commercial supplier or do you make your own?

 

[snoopy20]

Commercial but he's unreliable and took a while to finally get it. Also comes in 200ltr barrels and is a pita to pump it out. Good stuff though.

 

[dieselman]

Have you run it on a really hot day yet?

 

[Chippychap]

Being an old cynic I always expected the government to suck us all into the world of cheap diesel and then close the loophole.
Just found an old newspaper article which seems to confirm this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/feb/10/should-we-mourn-biofuels

TBH I was never interested in the eco ethical point of view it was the price that made me look into it.
When I look at lists of supliers etc 90% of web links no longer work.
It seems that HMG want us to be green..................but not if it costs THEM.

 

[snoopy20]

Have you run it on a really hot day yet?

No, I thought it worked badly the other way!

-5 and it's fine.

 

[Cascade66]

I have two w210s, 98 & 99 purchased 2 & 5 years ago respectively and with 170k and 140k respectively on the clock. Chose this engine specifically for biofuel and started using blended Used Cooking Oil (UCO) almost three years ago. Cleaned tanks in advance using Solatron (from chandlers) and no problems with 80% settled and filtered (5microns) with 20% derv and standard dosage of Longma's VPlus7 additive. MPG drops from 30 to 26, but that still gives you equivalent of 120mpg from the derv, with little cost for the 80%. I need to add more derve in the really cold weather ( below -6C) and the performance is not quite as good, but fine for "limousine" style driving. Currently planning to move on to producing genuine biodiesel at home for both cars and house heating as it is cheaper, but need to invest in safety measures to avoid methanol safety issues, which is why I went down the blend route in the first place.

 

[rjevon]

Hi All,

Now this is the very reason Bio Diesel gets a bad name..

People constantly mix up Bio Diesel with WVO (Waste Veg Oil) and SVO (Straight Veg Oil - New).

Bio Diesel is chemically generated from Filtered and de-watered WVO or SVO. The majority of cars, including Common Rail, can and will run without modification on EN rated Bio Diesel.

I run my ML270 CDi 2003 model on it without issue and many many other do as well, as long as the Bio is of good quality.

For informed information please look at :-

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php

I spent months invstingating and chatting prior to use and found out the FACTS about Bio Diesel. You may loose a little MPG as the calorific value is lower, although the Cetane value is higher enabling a better burn. The calorific value can be resolved by certain addatives, adding approx .5ppl to the total cost of the Bio Diesel.

Regards
Richard