Not long now?

[prwales]

If the latest NI Assembly results are anything to go by it won't be long before there is a Nationalist majority and steps can be taken to unify the island

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-northern-ireland-2017-39159423

long overdue some might say but there have been many attempts before. One of the earliest being from Wolfe Tone one of the leaders of the United Irish movement that arose as a direct result of the French Revolution, defying the current stereotype he was a Protestant born in Dublin.

 

[Xtractorfan]

Not sure if this is a good thing or not, it will cause more problems that it solves. There is a very hard core Unionist bloc who will never go into a united Ireland, and anyone with . a modicum of sense will know that to force such an issue, will only bring about much discord and turmoil.
I personally think we have the best of both worlds, dual citizenship, and the comfort blanket of the Uk economy, although Brexit does have a big impact on the future economy of the UK in general.
With Brexit in the foreground, having a close relationship with the Republic, also gives us a big boost as the EU is still accessible, through the Irish relationship, and the dual citizenship.

It will have a big impact on the civil rights of certain groups ie the LBGT groupage who have been fighting for certain rights that are currently available in the rest of the UK.
Now that the DUP do not have a voting majority this will mean that they will not be able to use certain legislation, known as a 'petition of concern' which allowed them to veto any changes to things that they would have seen as detrimental to or in contrast with their beliefs.
.

 

[prwales]

There is an awful lot of shared interest between Britain and Ireland, not merely a shared history. People who want Brexit and oppose EU federalism should remember the UK is a [albeit unequal] federation with centrifugal forces at play on the fringes

 

[Xtractorfan]

There is an awful lot of shared interest between Britain and Ireland, not merely a shared history. People who want Brexit and oppose EU federalism should remember the UK is a [albeit unequal] federation with centrifugal forces at play on the fringes

Yes but the people who want Brexit have a view that this is the answer to all of Britians problems, especially immigration, it is possible that without the EU Britain might not be the honey pot it was, but there again it would still be much better than home for many people.
In my opionin it will make Britain much more vulnerable and totally dependant on outside influences, and susecptible to fragmentation.

 

[Frontstep]

Vulnerable to what ?

Totally dependent on outside influences ?

What protection does the EU offer us ?

The urge to break up the UK came well before any referendum on EU membership and in the case of Scotlands independence they lost in a referendum.
I know that now becomes a signal for endless complaining but Scotlands economic outlook has fell off a cliff since the referendum.

I am thinking of starting a petition to have the next General Election rerun no matter the outcome as both sides will say they could do things.

If you missed Ireland tearing itself to bits over home rule it was just suppressed by some clever diplomacy from Major and Blair.

The UK in or out of the EU won't end peoples desire for Irish home rule its a separate issue that some see as an opportunity for mischief making.

 

[Xtractorfan]

Vulnerable to what ?

Totally dependent on outside influences ?

What protection does the EU offer us ?

The urge to break up the UK came well before any referendum on EU membership and in the case of Scotlands independence they lost in a referendum.
I know that now becomes a signal for endless complaining but Scotlands economic outlook has fell off a cliff since the referendum.

I am thinking of starting a petition to have the next General Election rerun no matter the outcome as both sides will say they could do things.

If you missed Ireland tearing itself to bits over home rule it was just suppressed by some clever diplomacy from Major and Blair.

The UK in or out of the EU won't end peoples desire for Irish home rule its a separate issue that some see as an opportunity for mischief making.

I was going along with most of your arguments until I read the above post,
It is the kind of generalised statement that works well in a pub where few can actually hear what is being said, and then nod along in agreement.
I cannot even begin to put you straight on the facts which you have totally omitted, just to make a few points that have no bearing in fact or reality.
Try researching some of the things you don't have a clue about before making rash comments.

 

[Yugguy]

Do we need another Brexit thread?

 

[Frontstep]

I was going along with most of your arguments until I read the above post,
It is the kind of generalised statement that works well in a pub where few can actually hear what is being said, and then nod along in agreement.
I cannot even begin to put you straight on the facts which you have totally omitted, just to make a few points that have no bearing in fact or reality.
Try researching some of the things you don't have a clue about before making rash comments.

None of its rash you are making one of those sweeping generalised criticisms with no facts whatsoever to support your comments.

Major And Blair Good Friday agreement, Fact.

Northern Ireland's Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness has called for a border poll on a united Ireland, Fact

SNP campaigns for independence before EU referendum. Fact

Scotlands economy declining Fact

So over to you what protection does the EU offer us ?

Or are you going back to the pub

 

[prwales]

I didn't intend it as a brexit thread but as an issue it's affecting everything. I intended it as one about the long term decline of Unionism and the prospects for Irish Unity

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39166355

My view is that anything that harms the power and prestige of the English State is generally a good thing. Not just for the devolved governments but also for the North of England and other regions blighted by a London first agenda.
At the heart of this is again my view that we are not a democratic country in any meaningful sense, small groups of spivs and swindlers dictate Government policy and as a result these policies benefit them and impoverish the majority. Rant over

 

[Frontstep]

I didn't intend it as a brexit thread but as an issue it's affecting everything. I intended it as one about the long term decline of Unionism and the prospects for Irish Unity

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39166355

My view is that anything that harms the power and prestige of the English State is generally a good thing. Not just for the devolved governments but also for the North of England and other regions blighted by a London first agenda.
At the heart of this is again my view that we are not a democratic country in any meaningful sense, small groups of spivs and swindlers dictate Government policy and as a result these policies benefit them and impoverish the majority. Rant over

Don't want to wake you up to much from your Socialist Utopian love in with Jeremy and Dianne but harming Englands "Power and Prestige" is quite literally biting the hand that feeds and cutting your nose off to spite your Welsh face etc.

Calling members of the Welsh Assembly spivs and swindlers is a bit rude or are you splitting your ire on race grounds ?

You didn't forget they are part of the Government did you

 

[prwales]

Don't want to wake you up to much from your Socialist Utopian love in with Jeremy and Dianne but harming Englands "Power and Prestige" is quite literally biting the hand that feeds and cutting your nose off to spite your Welsh face etc.

Calling members of the Welsh Assembly spivs and swindlers is a bit rude or are you splitting your ire on race grounds ? Disingenuous

You didn't forget they are part of the Government did you

Not at all, the Labour regime in Wales has collaborated in pushing through Tory austerity, not something their electorate wanted or voted for.
I suppose you think that we should be grateful and shut up, sorry but if the public sector spend in Wales or in other poor regions of the UK weres a fraction of that spent in the SE; Wales, the NE and Cornwall would be prosperous instead of paupers.

 

[Xtractorfan]

Vulnerable to what ?

Totally dependent on outside influences ? Little Britian cannot survive on its own we need the rest of the world for trade and their peoples for their skills and intelligence.

What protection does the EU offer us ?There is safety in numbers, and 28 countries together is better than one alone

The urge to break up the UK came well before any referendum on EU membership and in the case of Scotlands independence they lost in a referendum. They did, but they also became much more nationalsit, and they have the right to determine their own future
I know that now becomes a signal for endless complaining but Scotlands economic outlook has fell off a cliff since the referendum. You are basing your assumptions on North Sea Oil, There is more to their economy than oil, which London

I am thinking of starting a petition to have the next General Election rerun no matter the outcome as both sides will say they could do things. In a democratic country you would be allowed and entitled to do this

If you missed Ireland tearing itself to bits over home rule it was just suppressed by some clever diplomacy from Major and Blair. The North of Ireland,because the Brits, with your kind of logic, had similar thinking to you and built in a Unionist Majority, to appease a minority, then allowed only those who owned proeprty and land, given to them by the Brits, only to vote.
Imagine people wanting to be able to have a say in their own land.

The UK in or out of the EU won't end peoples desire for Irish home rule its a separate issue that some see as an opportunity for mischief making.

Republicans who support Sinn Fein. Martin Mcguinness/ Gerry Adams, their aspiration is to have an Ireland United, and it is the mainstay of their party. They have now a similar number of elected reps. to the ruling DUP...one less .. 28 to 27. So they have everyright to call for a United Ireland, thats democracy. I cannot see it happening in the near future

 

[Frontstep]

So is that a long winded apology ?

Probably not but still one can hope.................


I have never said we shouldn't trade with the world or welcome in people with required skillsets so why make up this fake xenophobia nonsense ?


Safety from who ? are you mixing up defence and the EU ?
Our no 1 security partner is the USA still.

Scotland has now become more "nationalist" no they haven't the Conservatives have had a resurgence north of the border under Ruth Davison.

There is still a majority against independence if you can believe the polls.


Democratic country ????? did anyone suggest we shouldn't be

As to Ireland that is properly confused thinking are you going back to the 17th century.

My comment was that Major and Blairs clever diplomacy suppressed Irelands desire to tear itself to bits was only missing the input of Mo Mowlem.
Where is that wrong ?

 

[Frontstep]

Not at all, the Labour regime in Wales has collaborated in pushing through Tory austerity, not something their electorate wanted or voted for.
I suppose you think that we should be grateful and shut up, sorry but if the public sector spend in Wales or in other poor regions of the UK weres a fraction of that spent in the SE; Wales, the NE and Cornwall would be prosperous instead of paupers.

But we spend more per head on the Welsh than people in the South East


http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04033/SN04033.pdf

If you mean London yes they do get a lot of money thrown at them but there are a number of reasons for this primarily it is the capital and it probably includes your enhanced contribution to the Royal Family.


Interestingly both Scotland and Northern Ireland (per head) get more than the capital.

Sturgeon doesn't bring that up to often does she...

 

[Xtractorfan]

So is that a long winded apology ?

Probably not but still one can hope.................


I have never said we shouldn't trade with the world or welcome in people with required skillsets so why make up this fake xenophobia nonsense ?


Safety from who ? are you mixing up defence and the EU ?
Our no 1 security partner is the USA still.

Scotland has now become more "nationalist" no they haven't the Conservatives have had a resurgence north of the border under Ruth Davison.

There is still a majority against independence if you can believe the polls.


Democratic country ????? did anyone suggest we shouldn't be

As to Ireland that is properly confused thinking are you going back to the 17th century.

My comment was that Major and Blairs clever diplomacy suppressed Irelands desire to tear itself to bits was only missing the input of Mo Mowlem.
Where is that wrong ?

.Just read this bit scroll down to Northern Ireland and see what they say, if 1969 was back in the 17thcentury, then Im quite prepared to start reading the Sun and the Mail and believing politicians when they open their mouths to speak.. Even teh current lot under May who like Cameron are lying their way to the next election.
As for Scotland, there is a very loyal English older contingent who have settled there and can vote,given also the Englified Scots who, see London as their pot of gold and alot of former labour voters, who dislike the SNP and you have the resurgence in the conservative vote. it will not last.
And that one you speak off is to be watched very carefully, she does tend to go with the flow and has a very devious lying streak within her. She wasa very good student of Camerons, lie and lie again until some of the people believe you.
You really do need to look more into the stuff that you believe, it is like paint on a Mercedes, very little underneath to back it up. oh her name yes UntRuth Davison
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_man,_one_vote

 

[prwales]

Frontstep; the cost of X Rail alone is approaching £30bn, you forgot the £12-24bn on the Olympics, or the next tranches of public money on HS2[£55bn], and on Heathrow [£18-28bn]. Thats forgetting the cost of repairing the Palace of Malice, at up to £5.7bn

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33184160
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...iral-24bn--10-TIMES-higher-2005-estimate.html
http://stophs2.org/facts
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-hidden-tory-mp-stephen-hammond-taxpayer-cost

its the inequalities like these that will drive change and away from an over centralised and corrupt system

 

[Xtractorfan]

So is that a long winded apology ?

Probably not but still one can hope.................


I have never said we shouldn't trade with the world or welcome in people with required skillsets so why make up this fake xenophobia nonsense ?


Safety from who ? are you mixing up defence and the EU ?
Our no 1 security partner is the USA still.

Scotland has now become more "nationalist" no they haven't the Conservatives have had a resurgence north of the border under Ruth Davison.

There is still a majority against independence if you can believe the polls.


Democratic country ????? did anyone suggest we shouldn't be

As to Ireland that is properly confused thinking are you going back to the 17th century.

My comment was that Major and Blairs clever diplomacy suppressed Irelands desire to tear itself to bits was only missing the input of Mo Mowlem.
Where is that wrong ?

An apology for your ignorance of reality and history. You cannot wander about still thinking the Earth is flat, and then ask everyone else who knows better to apologise to you.... live and learn.
And your bit about Major and Blairs clever diplomacy, glosses over the reality of the situation.
Talks were going on since Jim Callaghan sent the Army into the North of Ireland. They were discontinued when Thatcher and her cohorts came into power, but were reluctantly resseructed after the mainland bombings and the killing of Airey Neave outside the house of commons, and the Brighton Conference bomb. Sad times indeed, which there was no need for. But British Governments could never see how giving people their justifiable rights would bring about peace...
The main COG in the peace process was JOHN HUME,the leader of the SDLP at the time. He personally sacrificed his own party and his health subsequently deteriorated, because of the efforts he put in to bring peace.
He went out on a limb to talk to Gerry Adams and Martin Mc Guinness to bring them away from violence and into a positon where they could field candidates and get elected. Mc Guinness is still an MP.others were involved like the Rev. Roy Magee, who talked to the Loyalist/unionist block to bring them on board..
Major and Blair were just the guys who signed the deals to make it official. as mentioned , Mo Mowlam the labour Secretary of State was a very big influencein bringing Adam and Mcguinnes on board.
Also involved was a guy called Jermey Corbyn and Ken Livingstone and a few other labour MPs who befriended Adams and Mc Guinness and were able to bring them on board and get them away from violence... Notice you wont see Teresa May there or David Camerons name mentioned....
Your Friend untRuth Davison, has referred to Jeremy Corbyn as a friend of the IRA. Devious would you not say.

 

[prwales]

Melanie Phillips known as Mad Mel a columnist with Murdochs Times has embroiled herself by making some very very ignorant statements

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/45e390b0-02b4-11e7-976a-0b4b9a1a67a3

 

[Frontstep]

Frontstep; the cost of X Rail alone is approaching £30bn, you forgot the £12-24bn on the Olympics, or the next tranches of public money on HS2[£55bn], and on Heathrow [£18-28bn]. Thats forgetting the cost of repairing the Palace of Malice, at up to £5.7bn

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33184160
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...iral-24bn--10-TIMES-higher-2005-estimate.html
http://stophs2.org/facts
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-hidden-tory-mp-stephen-hammond-taxpayer-cost

its the inequalities like these that will drive change and away from an over centralised and corrupt system

I gave you the Governments figures I didn't make them up.

Does a lot of money get spent on Infrastructure daan saaf certainly but I am from tup north I don't have a bias, its simply that Wales does very well off the money generators in the South.

 

[Frontstep]

An apology for your ignorance of reality and history. You cannot wander about still thinking the Earth is flat, and then ask everyone else who knows better to apologise to you.... live and learn.
And your bit about Major and Blairs clever diplomacy, glosses over the reality of the situation.
Talks were going on since Jim Callaghan sent the Army into the North of Ireland. They were discontinued when Thatcher and her cohorts came into power, but were reluctantly resseructed after the mainland bombings and the killing of Airey Neave outside the house of commons, and the Brighton Conference bomb. Sad times indeed, which there was no need for. But British Governments could never see how giving people their justifiable rights would bring about peace...
The main COG in the peace process was JOHN HUME,the leader of the SDLP at the time. He personally sacrificed his own party and his health subsequently deteriorated, because of the efforts he put in to bring peace.
He went out on a limb to talk to Gerry Adams and Martin Mc Guinness to bring them away from violence and into a positon where they could field candidates and get elected. Mc Guinness is still an MP.others were involved like the Rev. Roy Magee, who talked to the Loyalist/unionist block to bring them on board..
Major and Blair were just the guys who signed the deals to make it official. as mentioned , Mo Mowlam the labour Secretary of State was a very big influencein bringing Adam and Mcguinnes on board.
Also involved was a guy called Jermey Corbyn and Ken Livingstone and a few other labour MPs who befriended Adams and Mc Guinness and were able to bring them on board and get them away from violence... Notice you wont see Teresa May there or David Camerons name mentioned....
Your Friend untRuth Davison, has referred to Jeremy Corbyn as a friend of the IRA. Devious would you not say.

Again you have avoided showing me where I was wrong, which was your original charge .

You go back to previous talks to somehow justify your stance but the simple fact of the matter is Blair got the signature that moved the people of Northern Ireland into a new era.

The Cog if you want to use that term missing from your analysis was Paisley the others were on board for the process but understandably did not trust the IRA to disarm.
He pulled the Unionists in with the assistance of Peter Robinson.
Then there's Clinton and George Mitchell.
Gerry Adams he was looking at political settlements years before it happened.