SatNav option advice sought...

[rcrossland]

Newb - so treat me gentle please

Just taken delivery of an 02 C220CDI Estate which has a radio/cd unit (Elegance trim) with steering wheel controls. Is there a decent MB SatNav upgrade for this at all? MB website offers no clue and dealer looked at me blankly! Any advice much appreciated. Otherwise it is looking like an aftermarket option e.g. Pioneer

Rob

 

[Arnie]

Hello,

If you want OEM, then the one to get is the Mercedes Audio-30 APS. These are available new for £1500 in the UK, or £900 in Germany or about £400 on ebay in good condition. (Code numbers: BE47xx series, see below.)

The Audio-30 APS is only available as a CD version (not cassette), because it uses the CD drive as a ROM drive for navigation CDs.

Fitting is very simple and mostly plug and play, but you will need to get a set of special radio-extraction keys from your dealer (£5). In addtion to the existing wiring, you may need to provide a Speed signal (wheel sensor), a reversing signal and then find a place under the dash (if you have a normal windscreen) for the magnetic GPS antenna. The antenna can "see" through plastic and glass, but not metal.

If interested, I can give you the contact email of a guy who imports them from Germany to sell on ebay in the UK. You can probably get a good one from him directly for £400,. I paid £600 (over the odds) for mine from him by bidding, before I realised that it wasn't just a one off that he had and that he does it as a business. I found that £400 is the typical price, for unit with latest map CDs and antenna. Send me an email.

However, make sure you get the latest CD's (MB, Nov 2003, version-7, 2 discs) as they cost up to £200 otherwise. A GPS antenna will be about £60, if not included.

These units do not have a map display but they have by far the best voice guidance of any unit, with a natural female or male voice and they provide a text route list and graphical turn by turn information. I have compared one to the ICN630i portable Navman unit and it beets it hand down, because its turn information is always spot on at the right time. This is because these units also have a built-in Gyro and a speed (distance) signal input from the wheels, which portable units do not.

One the route is calculated, you can eject the Nav CD and use the CD drive fro Music CDs

If you have an E-class, your speed signal is normally only transmitted on the vehicle's CAN-bus so you may need an adapter to extract this signal for the satnav unit, unless you can find the signal elsewhere. These adapters are, unfortunately, quite pricy (budget £100).

see: http://www.dobbertin-elektronik.de/navigate/can-bus/can-ausw.htm#Mercedes Benz

However, this speed (wheel sensor) signal is essential for proper operation. But, before buying, you may be lucky, so check Pin-1 on your existing bottom ISO radio connector (this signal is also sometimes used to increase the volume automatically when you go faster).

A reversing signal is said to be required, but is not essential, unless you travel backwards a lot, in which case the unit can get momentarily confused.

Also, unlike on the similar Becker Consumer units, the TMC feature does not appear to be enabled for the UK on the Audio-30 APS units with latest operating software and maps. This is an important point.


Below is an edited extract from my answer to a previous Post:


I've replaced an Audio-10 CD on an SL with an Audio-30-APS.

The speed signal normally connected to the Audio-10 for volume control (GAL) works very well.

The reversing signal, again, is not required uless you go in reverse for long distances, which may then momentarily confuse the APS-30.

Just Plug and Play. The APS-30 will work just fine and is really amazingly accurate with the existing wiring.

You will, of couse, need to find a location for the GPS antenna. The normal one has a 2m cable and you can probably hide it under the dash, infont of the windscreen (pointing-up). Test for reception, before fixing permanently.

If you buy a new APS-30, then no problem. However, if buying on ebay (about £300-£400) or s/h bear in mind that:

1.) if you want the in-dash display to work as well as the radio panel display and steering wheel controls, you will need a CAN-bus version. This is available on MB OEM (Audio-30 APS) versions only.
The CAN-Bus is only available on latest model numbers, which are BE4715 and BE4716 for the standatrd DIN-fit units and BE4717 and BE4718 for the rounded-fascia units (new C-class etc.) I think that there is no significant difference between the early and later CAN-bus units.

2.) The units are all made by Becker and similar Becker versions (Traffic Pro, BE4720, BE4725 etc) can now be had for a lot less (new~£600) than the APS-30. They have, however slightly different menu functions and a few more features (more gimmicks) than the OEM APS units and so the navigation CD's, because they also contain operating-system software, are not compatible between Mercedes Becker/OEM and Becker consumer units. The Becker consumer units do not have a compatible CAN bus so you cannot have the in-dash display. The consumer becker versions, do, however, have a removable front panel for security and come in different lighting colours. However, I think that they no longer produce a white light version to match MB instrumentation lighting, but the yellow on black is probably better (BE 4720 or BE 7820).

I am not sure, but I think that the later Becker Traffic-Pro High-speed units (BE782x series and later, BE79xx) may now be using Tele-Atlas maps, which are cheaper for Becker to provide, but are not as good (nowhere near, from what I read) as the NavTech maps on the original Trafiic Pro (BE47xx) and MB units, but they do have faster processors. The closest model in appearance to the OEM MB Audio-30-APS, is perhaps the BE 7802 DTM, which is now discontinued, but can still be found for about £500 new.

The Becker 4720 and DTM series maps are already version-8 and the operating system software update has a post-code entry feature, which the MB Audio-30 APS units do not.

3.) The in-dash diplay unit will need to be re-programmed to display the Audio-30 APS navigation information pages. A dealer can do this.

4.)For the Mercedes Audio-30 APS, the service menu needs to be used to fully calibrate the unit. (Go to destination input menu and hold buttons 2 and 7 pressed.) This allows you to choose the model of car and confirm the tyre size for better accuracy.
see here:

http://www.megacomm.de/telematik/mercedes/aps30/mb_aps30_allgemein.htm


Some Test Reviews:

http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/S-hosdnjpv9Yy/reviews/trafficpro_system.html?page=1

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_print.asp?ID=2084


See also:

For general intro to MB radio/Nav options and other links:
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/radios.html

Where to find the speed signal, if not already on the connector:
http://www.siemensvdo.com.au/files/502527_Vehicle Speed Pulse Locator Nov-2003.xls

For installation and set-up details (APS-30 is very similar to Becker BE4720):
http://www.becker.de/beckerCC21/www_root/documents/gps_antenne_1397_850_4720_Einbauanl_CD5_0.pdf

For typical Becker prices:
http://www.caraudiodiscount.com/acatalog/becker_navigation.html

Becker home:
http://www.becker.de/beckerCC21/www_root/index.jsp?language=En

German pricing:
http://www.dobbertin-elektronik.de/navigate/navigate.htm

http://www.megacomm.de/menu/menu_telematik_mb/menu.htm
http://www.megacomm.de/menu/menu_telematik/menu.htm


Model Summary:

BE4705: First version Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-30 APS without CAN-Bus: DIN size; NavTech maps.

BE4708: Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-30 APS : DIN size; NavTech maps. Special version for VITO etc installation at 30-60 degree tilt. (Normal units specified for 0-30 degrees).


BE4715: Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-30 APS with CAN-Bus: DIN size; NavTech maps.
BE4716: latest Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-30 APS with CAN-Bus: DIN size; NavTech maps.

BE4717: Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-30 APS with CAN-Bus: Rounded fascia; NavTech maps.
BE4718: latest Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-30 APS with CAN-Bus: Rounded fascia; NavTech maps.

BE4720: Becker traffic-Pro with yellow-black illumination: recommended if no in-dash display required (No CAN-bus); NavTech maps.

BE7802 Becker Traffic Pro DTM: Closest look/match to Audio-30 APS, but No CAN-bus: Discontinued, but nice; NavTech maps.

BE7820: Becker traffic-Pro High-Speed with yellow-black illumination: Recommended if no in-dash display required (No CAN-bus).

BE79xx: Becker traffic-Pro High-Speed newer styling: (No CAN-bus).

BE7800: Becker On-Line-Pro with yellow-black illumination: Has integrated hands-free GPS phone. Recommended if no in-dash display required (No CAN-bus). NavTech maps.

BE78??: Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-40 APS with CAN-Bus: DIN size; MB version of becker 7800, above (GPS telephone).


BE????: Becker/Mercedes OEM Audio-50 APS : new standard offering, but not a standard DIN-size front panel.

 

[rcrossland]

Wow! Top reply many thanks. It would be great if you could put me in touch with that chap please.

 

[Tony]

I think that's the best reply to any question that I've ever read, Arnie. I've got an X reg SLK320 with an Audio-10 CD. Would the Audio 32 APS be a straight replacement d'you think. Also do these GPS things work for free - i.e. do you have to pay a subscription. I had been thinking of getting a Garmin.

 

[Arnie]

Tony,

the Audio-30 APS (4705, 4715, 4716) will be a straight plug and play swap with your existing Audio-10 CD or CC. You will need to locate the flat antenna under the dash, but high-up near the windscreen. (Adhesive pads or Velcro etc). The speed-signal should be already there on Pin-1 (top-left) of the bottom ISO connector, at the back of the Radio. If you have a wire on Pin-1, It will be fine. You will need the MB radio extraction keys to remove your exiting unit and to fit the new one (from a dealer, about £5).

No, there is no subscription. GPS is free and is courtesy of the US Goverment. However, all the GPS provides is a method for the reciever to calculate your exact co-ordinates to within 5m- 10m (higher accuracy is reserved for Cruise missiles 8) ). It does this by measuring the difference in time between signals transmitted from the satellites in view (20 odd around the globe), and given that it knows the satellite positions (from an almanac) at any time, it can work out the relative distance from each satellite and therby triangulate your position in 3D. The key is to link your co-ordinates with map data and keep updating it as you move. The only cost to you apart from the initial purchase is the cost of the map CDs, which you may wish to buy from time to time to keep up to date with changing road networks.
These cost about £200 for a Euro set, whether from Garmin or MB (They are generally not transferable between different units).

Although the Garmin (StreetPilot etc) unit is good, I would choose the APS unit because it makes use of wheelsensor and built-in gyroscope info to give more precise navigation. It can detect when you turn corners, and can dead-reckon, when the satellite signals are lost (happens often when near tall buildings or in tunnels). Also, you don't need to mess with cigarette power adapters, external speakers, windshield clamps, etc and you can leave the APS in the car with less chance of theft.
The APS is far more accurate around town (because of gyro and wheel sensor additional info), has better voice commands and is better able to keep up with the twists and turns (the gyro signal tells it when you turn a corner, so it does not need to wait for the next GPS update- 1 per sec- to work out what's happening).

However, there is a new Garmin 2660 with gyro and speed input due out soon. http://www.garmin.com/products/sp2660/. It will be about £1200.

 

[Tony]

Thanks very much, Arnie.

 

[anarchy-inc]

You will need to locate the flat antenna under the dash, but high-up near the windscreen. (Adhesive pads or Velcro etc).

Can you offer advice on where the best location would be under the dash for a GPS antenna on a CLK? Where is the best access point, from the passenger side? I have a TomTom receiver that connects to my iPaq but it currently sits on top of the dash.

 

[guydewdney]

you can also retrofit comand into a C class

http://mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=5483

 

[Arnie]

"....Can you offer advice on where the best location would be under the dash for a GPS antenna on a CLK?...."


I don't know the under-dash area of the CLK, but I would suggest a central position, rather than passenger or driver's side. (The passenger side usually has the airbag, so I'd keep away from this). Remove the vents above the radio and maybe you can find a suitable place up there, just under the dash surface. Otherwise, there may be enough space above the instrument cluster, just under binacle- remove the footwell panel under the steering wheel and try to push out the instrument cluster with your hands from behind (MB use two sharp hooks from the front.) Then see if you find enough space.

 

[acey]

Does anyone know if the new version 7 works with the APS 30 (mine is in a SLK 320 -00). It says that it now uses Teleatles instead of Navtech? Specs are "7.0 Becker Traffic Pro/2.0 DTM" Comes with 2 cds and is valid in 21 countries.

Since this is my first post I should say hi aswell Thanks,

/Stefan

 

[NormanB]

Arnie

You clearly know your stuff and I mean no disrespect by this, but, I understood GPS antennae siting can be a little more problematical under dash in those cars that have a heated screen - and in those case some people either fit roof mounted or even inside the rear bumper assembly.

I hasten to add - I know absolutely zilch about this subject personally - I just recall reading it somewhere. (forget where -I'm getting old!).

My SPIII (without a remote antennae) is fine for me as I transfer it twixt 3 cars and a motorbike as the need arises.

 

[Aurora]

That's correct - because the heated windscreen has metal wires running through it. Albeit they are very fine wires, but they are close enough together to attenuate the GPS signal getting to the receiver. Sometimes it works OK, sometimes not. The signal is there but will be weakened so it reduces the effectiveness.

 

[Arnie]

There are two types of windscreen which would cause problems for a dash-mounted GPS antenna (problem for GPS phones too):

1.) Metalised heat reflecting screen (metallic blue-green tint).

2.) Certain types of electrically heated screens (particularly ones with metalised coatings as used by Ford).

You can get round the problem with a re-radiating antenna, which picks up the outside signal and transmits it to the car interior, or simply a roof mounted GPS.

However, if you get an extension cable to feed through the front bulkhead (find a spot where other wires go through), the other possible mounting spots could be inside the front plastic bumper or just in front of the winscreen under the plastic bonnet air intake grille. The standard-type of flat antenna with magnetic mounting base is ideally suited for these places as well as under-dash-mount. This is less hassle than drilling your roof and removing the roof lining.

Most older Mercs should be OK with under-dash.

 

[Arnie]

Does anyone know if the new version 7 works with the APS 30 (mine is in a SLK 320 -00). It says that it now uses Teleatles instead of Navtech? Specs are "7.0 Becker Traffic Pro/2.0 DTM" Comes with 2 cds and is valid in 21 countries.

Since this is my first post I should say hi aswell Thanks,

/Stefan

Hello,

Although the hardware is essentially the same, you CANNOT use MB Audio-30 APS discs in Becker Traffic Pro sets or Vice-Versa. This is because the discs also contain operarting system upgrades and the two units have different control and menu layouts. You can risk permanently crashing your unit, if you try.

Latest MB version is 7
and the latest Becker TP/DTM version is 8, which is navtec. I think that only the newer Becker models have gone to Teleatlas??

 

[Hilton]

Becker 4720

Having read the posts on this subject I would like to know if anyone has fitted a Becker 4720 and if they are happy with it. A local independent offers the Becker installation for about 1K + VAT.

 

[Tomanux]

Sat Nav European Map on an ML500 US import 2007

Dear fellow members,

I am struggling with MB UK (and USA) as I purchased an ML500 in 2007 while living in New York City for work. Last June we have relocated to London and I took the car with me and finally got it registered in the UK.
This is all good except that the Sat Nav is not working and I do not understand from MB if it is the system which is not compatible or if they just do not have a CD to update my US Sat Nav. I will need to get the Western Europe CD.
MB said to me that the US Sat Nav is another system and does not accept European CD...

WOuld anyone be able to share some feed back on this - greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

Tomanux