Shell V-Power Nitro +. Dangers with older engines?

[Prof.C.Benz]

Morning all!...

I have never been a fan of any kind of flushing or cleaning fuel addatives in old engines as certain deposits can actually be helping plug any nooks and crannys that have developed with age.

My question is, with this new Shell Fuel, could I loosen these positive deposits and cause long term problems in my M103 engine??

Also, am I completely wrong on using adatives and can a M103 comfortably deal with a good cleaning, and will it help performance?

Thoughts please!..

 

[Uncle Benz]

I recently did a head gasket job on a 1978 250TE. I was always taught to leave a ring of carbon around the edge of the piston or it'd smoke when rebuilt. On this particular car the number two piston had been steamed clean by coolant passing through the failed head gasket, and looked a little odd in the line as it was so shiny.
Imagine my sinking heart as the old thing smoked like a trooper when re-assembled.
A couple of thousand miles on now, and it's actually fine again, but seemed like ages....

I'd swerve the fancy petrol with an old crock. Why take the chance?

 

[Prof.C.Benz]

I think there is talk that the fancier petrol will have lower ethanol content compared to 95RON which is apparently going up to 10%... Correct me if I'm wrong?...

This means seals will take a battering with 95, but then deposits may be loosend with the 99RON... Rock & a Hard Place??...

 

[hotrodder]

Having just taken my daily cynical pill i'd be amazed if v power nitro + isn't 99% marketing BS to go with the 99RON. Remember 'fuel save'? Trading standards didn't like some of their claims. Going back in time a bit further what about formula shell?

There has been talk that super unleaded will (generally at least) be kept at lower ethanol content. If the internet is to be believed then Shell are one of the few companies that refuse to comment on the ethanol content of their petrol... http://www.groups.tr-register.co.uk/wessex/ethanol-update.html The whole E10 thing seems to be up in arms at the moment with campaigns and petitions, apologies for the Daily Fail link but everything google spat out cited their article and i can't be bothered to hunt around transport minister urges delay to introduction of green petrol Likewise the formula shell link appears to be a site with an agenda

 

[Prof.C.Benz]

From a very helpful lady. their official quote on the Ethanol matter...

"Dear Mr *****,

Thank you for contacting Esso Customer Care.

The majority of unleaded 95 Octane petrol sold in the UK contains 5% ethanol as required under the Government’s Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation (RTFO).

There is currently no requirement for renewable fuel (such as ethanol) to be present in super unleaded (97 grade petrol). Esso super unleaded petrol (Esso Energy Supreme) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland) and we have no current intention to add ethanol to Esso Energy Supreme in other areas of the UK.

We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Esso Energy Supreme – providing they don’t fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland.

The proportion of ethanol in 95 grade unleaded in the UK is expected to increase to 10% in the next few years to meet increasing legislated renewables content, bringing us into line with both France and Germany. When this happens, the Government has legislated that super unleaded petrol must be available at least until 1st January 2014 with no more than 5% ethanol content. It remains to be seen whether the Government will decide to extend that deadline, because the introduction of 10% ethanol in unleaded in the UK has taken longer than originally envisaged.

Finally, you may be interested in the regulations relating to ethanol in petrol. The RTFO was amended in 2009 and is listed under The Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2009 Order 843 ( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/843/introduction/made). This fulfils the requirements of the EU’s Biofuels Directive of 8 May 2003 ( http://ec.europa.eu/energy/res/legislation/doc/biofuels/en_final.pdf), and Directive 2009/28/EC of 23rd April 2009 ( http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:140:0016:0062:EN:PDF ), which promoted the use of energy from renewable sources.

Yours sincerely,

Anett Furedi

Customer Care Assistant UK&Ireland Customer Service, Fuels & Lubricants, EAME + UK Customer Care, ExxonMobil House, MP 300, Ermyn Way, Leatherhead, Surrey, KT22 8UX ( 020 7136 1798 7 020 7026 4728 :"

Hope this is useful to some of you... anyone driving any MB over 10 years should avoid Ethanol!

The Professor.

 

[television]

Thank you, this kind of info is so useful

 

[Prof.C.Benz]

No worries, Television!


Incase there are those that don't understand the damage caused by Ethanol to older vehicles, please read the following:

http://www.groups.tr-register.co.uk/wessex/ethanol-update.html

Ignore the bit at the bottom about individual Fuel companies and their Ethanol content, as this article is from 2011.

As soon as I hear from Shell & BP, I will update

 

[properwounded]

I will march to london and demand a ban on this poison

 

[television]

I will march to london and demand a ban on this poison

Can I get you some tea or coffee while you are on route

 

[Prof.C.Benz]

I will march to london and demand a ban on this poison

Here here!... I have written to my local MP about this yesterday... Let's see what he comes back to me with.. I will post his response.

 

[d215yq]

Before everyone gets all up in arms about this is there any real world evidence that the E5 we've been using for years is fine but E10 suddenly destroys everything in the fuel system.

There will be some chemicals in petrol/oil that would cause much more damage than ethanol but they'll be in such minute quantities it won't matter, so just saying ethanol causes damage is not good enough

So does anyone have any real world evidence of E10 causing significantly more problems than E5, which seems to have caused zero problems as we're all still running around in our cars that have been running on this for a while. Unless there is any such hard evidence it's pointless opposing it.

 

[Prof.C.Benz]

From Wikipedia, sighting many independant sources:

Modifications to engines

The use of ethanol blends in conventional gasoline vehicles is restricted to low mixtures, as ethanol is corrosive and can degrade some of the materials in the engine and fuel system. Also, the engine has to be adjusted for a higher compression ratio as compared to a pure gasoline engine to take advantage of ethanol's higher oxygen content, thus allowing an improvement in fuel efficiency and a reduction of tailpipe emissions. [91] The following table shows the required modifications to gasoline engines to run smoothly and without degrading any materials. This information is based on the modifications made by the Brazilian automotive industry at the beginning of the ethanol program in that country in the late 1970s, and reflects the experience of Volkswagen do Brasil. [140]

Required adjustments to gasoline engines to cope wi Ethanol blend Carburetor Fuel Injection Fuel pump Fuel pressure device

Fuel filter Ignition system Evaporative system F t

≤ 5% Modifications not necessar E5 to E10 Modifications not necessary fo

E10 to E25 Specially designed vehicles

E25 to E85 Specially designed veh

E85 to E100 Specially designed

Modifications not necessary Source: Josehp (2007) in The Royal Society (2008), "Sustainable biofuels: prospects and challenges, pp. 35-36". [91]

Other disadvantages

Disadvantages to ethanol fuel blends when used in engines designed exclusively for gasoline include lowered fuel mileage, metal corrosion, deterioration of plastic and rubber fuel system components, clogged fuel systems, fuel injectors, and carburetors, delamination of composite fuel tanks, varnish buildup on engine parts, damaged or destroyed internal engine components, water absorption, fuel phase separation, and shortened fuel storage life. [141][141][142][143] Many major auto, marine, motorcycle, lawn equipment, generator, and other internal combustion engine manufacturers have issued warnings and precautions about the use of ethanol-blended gasolines of any type in their engines, [144] and the Federal Aviation Administration and major aviation engine manufacturers have prohibited the use of automotive gasolines blended with ethanol in light aircraft due to safety issues from fuel system and engine damage. [141][142][143][145] Ethanol has a significantly lower heat content than gasoline (23.4 MJ/L vs 35MJ/L). Studies have concluded that the net fossil fuel energy savings when using ethanol is zero. Along with criticisms of raising food prices by taking significant crop production out of the world's food supply and massive government subsidies required to create a cost neutral experience for consumers make some observers are wary of increasing dependence on food derived ethanol as a fuel viable energy alternative. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/art...211959185.html

 

[properwounded]

Can I get you some tea or coffee while you are on route

A new lower body half might be a better idea

 

[d215yq]

The wikipedia article reads to me like E10 is borderline and up until (and including) E10 no modifications needed. Dont get me wrong, anything that leads to an abolition of old cars and gives manufacturers even more power to churn out 8 yr old lasting complex rubbish is something i am definitely against (i.e. things like the scrappage scheme, new MOT regs, etc).

I just don't think there's enough evidence yet that this E10 blend is a problem to be getting properly upset about.

 

[hotrodder]

Dunno why the OP has started so many threads on basically the same subject but it's not like E10 is brand new and this is all theory... other countries have had the stuff for several years and as such enough time has passed to provide plenty of evidence that it can and does cause damage

http://esse-community.eu/articles/the-introduction-of-e10-in-germany-a-case-of-failure/
http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?nid=93671
http://www.a-guide-to-florida-bass-fishing.com/ethanol-problems.html
http://abovegroundfuelstoragetanks.com/ethanol/2011/ethanol-storage/

My take on the subject from a previous thread on the topic...

I spent a lot of time researching ethanol blends a while back as i make bespoke and reproduction fuel tanks out of aluminium which is one of a long list of materials that don't like ethanol in some circumstances. Finding unbiased data wasn't easy as many sources are connected to environmentalists, or the historic car groups (remember the doom mongering about the demise of leaded) etc

E5 has been with us for a while in pretty much all flavours of unleaded except a few of the super/high octane blends, AFAIK it's fairly benign with the exception of eating some of the older flavours of rubber fuel lines i.e. older classics with low pressure hoses.
There's a LOT of reports of E10 rotting various fuel system components about, many of them from the States and Europe and these are being used to try and put off the changes due some time this year in the UK- introduction of E10. Info is out of date now but reports from about a year ago were suggesting that ethanol content of regular unleaded was simply being increased and 'super' would be left alone (note that many flavours of super are already 5% although that varies with location in the UK apparently)

My general take on the various conflicting reports about E10 with regards to older but not 'proper' classics (carbs etc)... the ethanol content isn't high enough to eat many of the commonly used metals quickly (some rubbers/gasket materials are a different story) itself but ethanol is hygroscopic and the presence of water opens things up to various types of corrosion... modern fuels already 'go off' fairly quickly and increasing ethanol content will make this worse and compound it in things (cars/bikes/lawnmowers etc) not used regularly- ethanol gets saturated with water, phase seperation occurs and then you get a layer of ethanol free petrol floating on an ethanol/water mix maybe even with a little neat water at the bottom.

Can't find it now but i did read a paper a while back from the fuel industry concerning corrosion of the storage tanks and changes that will need to made for corrosion reasons as ethanol contents are increased. I certainly won't be putting E10 in anything i own as long as there's a choice and already use the (supposidly) ethanol free flavours of super unleaded mainly as i only use a car a couple of times a week