W211 Geometry/TRacking Issues v Value of Car

Blobcat

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Yes, after 48 hrs of apparent panic sinking a few hundred Pounds into a car worth similar at WBAC valuation it was a jolt to the system! But with the views and thoughts shared on this forum, I have stood back and objectively made what I believe to be the right decision for me - get the car sorted and use it - until it blows up or has a major catastrophe like a gearbox strip and rebuild required. And then take time to consider the next car and choose a purchase on my terms and not driven by someone else's agenda to sell me a car.

I know better than most about the foolishness of buying a £100k car and trying to run it on the costs of running a £20k Ford Mondeo. The Porsche Turbo was £102k (the spec I have) and it requires deep pockets to keep it in pristine condition that enables one to enjoy it. Sadly too many of these great sports cars ar for sale at low-mid £30k's with exceptional mileages of 80k+ where the previous owner struggled to maintain it when the dreaded call came at service time after the health check on a list of advisories that were shelved and ignored. The following year the same and the list just got bigger and then in-between something went wrong so they fixed it up cheap and sold it on to the next unsuspecting gullible guy who finds out he needs the purchase price + £5k to sort out the deferred advisory issues. Then the turbos are reported as corroded and he breaks out into a sweat at £1k per Turbo + labour! And that's cheap - the original Porsche supplied new are £1800 or £2000 each! And there's two of 'em! I can imagine the gasp when the Air Suspension breaks down with leaks - at £1k per corner plus labour - thats a potential £5k bill on a car bought for £30k.

The LED headlights are not gonna be cheap. Same for the digital dash and the distronic/drive pilot. If it was not German, I'd question the reliability of the electronics - or maybe I am naive? But certainly, I am in no rush now to offload my very reliable car - it is silky smooth and never uses any oil between services - the mechanicals are just run-in!
I had the engine dropped in my 911 as the original battery cable has a tendency to corrode and the car won’t start when warm. The cable cost less than £100. Dropping the engine significantly more... still it’s what it needed and meant it never had an issue. That service cost me £2,500
 
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cheshireE220

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I had the engine dropped in my 911 as the original battery cable has a tendency to corrode and the car won’t start when warm. The cable cost less than £100. Dropping the engine significantly more... still it’s what it needed and meant it never had an issue. That service cost me £2,500
It sounds as if you have a 997? There is also a simpler problem with a poor Earth strap on 997's but still quite labour intensive without taking out the engine. Sadly, space is so tight in a Porsche that anything beyond the simplest repairs is often and engine or gearbox out job - with all that horrendous labour cost! I had a friend whose gearbox (tiptronic) was dropped no less than 3 times in 3 years for leaking oil seals. He got rid of it after spending a fortune - something I'd not do. I'd enjoy the car if I've put it all to right. Similarly, I know of examples of people off-loading a Porsche because it needs new brake lines - engine/gearbox out job for the rear brake lines (they are pre-formed and will not go in with the gearbox/engine in situ. Some clowns have their own Kunifer pipes made up and bent to shape which are not secured to the floor pan - but they argue they'll not rust whereas the Porsche genuine ones in steel will rust!
 

LostKiwi

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You should take WBAC quotes with a pinch of salt unless you have a euro box you're wanting to sell (and even then...)

We (for a laugh) put our r230 on and it came back as £2500. Retail they're £4k+ all day long and can be double that for our year.

Specialist vehicles like MBs are not their thing so they quote accordingly.
 

daibevan

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I called up again and discovered that it was Joe I was talking to. I could do tomorrow but he said he could not be available and he would like to work on my car himself following on from our chat yesterday. So it is booked in next week. I will try to meet Tony Bones when I am down there. WIM come highly recommended on the Maserati Forum. Yes, I own a Maserati as a summer car (and a Porsche Turbo), but that doesnt mean I don't shop around for value in maintenance and repairs. Around this part of the world, people have more money than sense and just pay extortionate prices for servicing at main dealers. Not me. The Maser is looked after by probably the best independent specialist there is in the UK - Autoshield Maserati in South Manchester. The Porsche is looked after at main dealer (not in Wilmslow) for servicing (the foxed price menu for servicing is a no-brainer and not worth losing the stamp for by switching to an indy - at least till now) and anything outside at a good indy up in Lancashire who know this model inside out.

I digress. The W211 is my daily workhorse. Not worth a lot as I mentioned when valued on WBAC. And its age is showing in terms of lack of technical sophistication and gadgetry. I am now looking to consolidate ownership by using a good indy (SPR Autos in Stockport come highly recommended - anybody used them and have feedback - please comment on here or private message me) as I have paid a lot through maintaining Main Dealer History for 17 years to keep the Mobilo warranty, which is not that valuable. In all these years, I have had to use it twice for broken coil strut at front (known issue) on separate occasions and numerous dead battery episodes after leaving the car for 4 weeks without trickle charger. The Porsche and Maserati are always on the trickle charger (CTEK). As we have 4 cars in the house, we have a personal breakdown cover policy that covers all cars - so questions the use of keeping Mobilo going - and they only take it to a Main Dealer where I'd get fleeced on prices!

I would like a 3-4 year old E220 AMG line Premium Plus spec car with less than 30k miles where someone else has taken a £25k hit in depreciation - but this level spec is rare (they are mainly base model SE or AMG line) as I want the digital dash and prices are around £25k - £27k approved used with 12 months warranty for a 66 plate-17 plate car.

My thinking is, if I'm gonna have another E-Class, get the spec I want and keep it for 10 years. I really like the S-Class but the budget is just a stretch too far (it is not about the purchase cost but the ownership costs). For example, that air suspension is notoriously expensive and prone to leaks on a 4 year car out of warranty - its expensive if it goes wrong (as I found out with the end-of-life SBS Control Unit on the W211).

With the current geometry issue, I'd rather fix my car, run it and take my time to source the spec and price of car in my budget - prices are falling all the time. The price is dropping more on the car I want to buy but not falling at all on my W211 which has hit the trough price now. I also want to research if I should branch out to some other marque after the W211. BMW appeals but seem too bland and basic alongside an E220 AMG Line Premium/Premium Plus. Audi A6 or A8 are too volume driven cars (less so the A8 - but similar price to S-Class and for me the S-Class is the one every time versus an A8).

I'd do just this.

When I was looking for my merc I sorted my old car, got a fresh mot, and gave myself 13 months to find what we wanted. As sods law would have it we found one the first day we started looking.;);););)
 

JBell

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The LED headlights are not gonna be cheap. Same for the digital dash and the distronic/drive pilot. If it was not German, I'd question the reliability of the electronics - or maybe I am naive?

The headlights are failing and as they are sealed MB want to replace the whole unit

But certainly, I am in no rush now to offload my very reliable car - it is silky smooth and never uses any oil between services - the mechanicals are just run-in!

And there is your answer, £500 for rubber bits IMO is acceptable, my W204 needs new lower front arms at 83k which are currently residing in the boot waiting for my mechanic friend to fit, it wil then have a nice new pair of Rain Sharks on the front and tracking and hey presto as good as new
 

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It sounds as if you have a 997? There is also a simpler problem with a poor Earth strap on 997's but still quite labour intensive without taking out the engine. Sadly, space is so tight in a Porsche that anything beyond the simplest repairs is often and engine or gearbox out job - with all that horrendous labour cost! I had a friend whose gearbox (tiptronic) was dropped no less than 3 times in 3 years for leaking oil seals. He got rid of it after spending a fortune - something I'd not do. I'd enjoy the car if I've put it all to right. Similarly, I know of examples of people off-loading a Porsche because it needs new brake lines - engine/gearbox out job for the rear brake lines (they are pre-formed and will not go in with the gearbox/engine in situ. Some clowns have their own Kunifer pipes made up and bent to shape which are not secured to the floor pan - but they argue they'll not rust whereas the Porsche genuine ones in steel will rust!
Apologies a bit late to the party!
WIM I’ve heard are the guys but a long trip away!
It might be worth trying these guys first, I’ve heard good things locally, I’d certainly give them a go if I’d any issues
https://www.carclinicmotcentre.co.uk/ellesmere-port-wheel-alignment/
 
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cheshireE220

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Thank you for this suggestion. I have already booked the car into WIM for Wednesday next week. But another adress closer to home is always welcome. I did speak to them just now. Price is good. BUT, they don't stock parts. I'd have to buy the parts from MB. So it is 2 trips - the first to check how far it is out and what bits are needed. Then buy the parts (almost certain to need 2 camber bolts, possibly 4, and no comment if they are seized in and take ages to replace). Then go back for fitting and resetting geometry.
This is like the fast fit alignment places local to me. WIM have parts and know the common parts required. They seem tk know their stuff and Joe states he will do my car as he knows the W211 inside out for geometry issues and assures me it will be fixed inside 90 minutes. So WIM it is. One round trip of 360 miles but car will be sorted (fingers crossed).
 
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John Laidlaw

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Thank you for this suggestion. I have already booked the car into WIM for Wednesday next week. But another adress closer to home is always welcome. I did speak to them just now. Price is good. BUT, they don't stock parts. I'd have to buy the parts from MB. So it is 2 trips - the first to check how far it is out and what bits are needed. Then buy the parts (almost certain to need 2 camber bolts, possibly 4, and no comment if they are seized in and take ages to replace). Then go back for fitting and resetting geometry.
This is like the fast fit alignment places local to me. WIM have parts and know the common parts required. They seem tk know their stuff and Joe states he will do my car as he knows the W211 inside out for geometry issues and assures me it will be fixed inside 90 minutes. So WIM it is. One round trip of 360 miles but car will be sorted (fingers crossed).
No worries, there is also @Steve@Avantgarde down Bristol way who also does this work and stocks all the camber boots etc
 
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cheshireE220

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UPDATE: I went to WIM yesterday. 320 miles round trip. Car on the ramp at 12noon. Spoke to Joe. He took me through the underside of the car - very clean, no oil spills or leaks - even with the under trays taken down. He showed me the Hunter Jig measurements - camber miles out (too much negative camber). Toe also out as was caster. He required 3 camber bolts (said not to bother with a 4th bolt as it would not change anything and would just be an expense with no gain). The bolts he changed 3 of them) all came out easily - quite why MB said it could be 1 or up to 5 hrs if they are seized is beyond comprehension.

The toe has been staggered based on Joe's experience. No play in drop links or other parts of suspension - and he said the HUnter measurements would tell him if there was wear in bushes by the magnitude of the numbers. Car off the ramp at 13:10, Joe took for test drive. Bill paid and on my way back home up north for the 160 mile journey by 13:30. Home at 16:45.

Joe said the pull to the left has improved markedly. But slight wobble is present at low speed and is down to shot front tyres whihc he recommended having replaced sooner rather than later.

I noticed a difference on the journey home. Still pulls to the left due to the crown effect of the road - but markedly takes longer to be too far over to the left.

I have ordered 3 Good Year Efficient Grip performance tyres today and have them fitted tomorrow. I asked at WIM for prices - too expensive (around £90 + VAT if I remember). I'm getting them locally fitted at £85 each! Changing also the one Mich tyre on n/s/r to complement the Good Year tyre on o/s/r due to a puncture that went through the carcass and could not be repaired in summer 2019. So car will have Good Year on both axles both corners per axle.

Joe has asked me to ring him and let him know how the car behaves with the new tyres on the front - one os badly worn on the inside due to excessive negative camber and both are cracking on the sidewalls due to age despite having 4mm tread.

The local tyre guys said the tyres will likely be out of shape - quite possible with Michelins he said.

The service at WIM was very good. They clearly know their stuff. The only niggle I discovered at the tyre place is the front under tray is falling off when looking from the front under the number plate and bumper. Was it tightened adequately when it was put back on after the new camber bolts? Anyway, not gonna do a 320 mile trip to have that secured! I've asked the tyre guy to tighten it when he does the tyre if he has a ramp spare. failing that,will take it to a local garage and ask them to put a new bolt on it and secure it properly.
 

Wighty

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UPDATE: I went to WIM yesterday. 320 miles round trip. Car on the ramp at 12noon. Spoke to Joe. He took me through the underside of the car - very clean, no oil spills or leaks - even with the under trays taken down. He showed me the Hunter Jig measurements - camber miles out (too much negative camber). Toe also out as was caster. He required 3 camber bolts (said not to bother with a 4th bolt as it would not change anything and would just be an expense with no gain). The bolts he changed 3 of them) all came out easily - quite why MB said it could be 1 or up to 5 hrs if they are seized is beyond comprehension.

The toe has been staggered based on Joe's experience. No play in drop links or other parts of suspension - and he said the HUnter measurements would tell him if there was wear in bushes by the magnitude of the numbers. Car off the ramp at 13:10, Joe took for test drive. Bill paid and on my way back home up north for the 160 mile journey by 13:30. Home at 16:45.

Joe said the pull to the left has improved markedly. But slight wobble is present at low speed and is down to shot front tyres whihc he recommended having replaced sooner rather than later.

I noticed a difference on the journey home. Still pulls to the left due to the crown effect of the road - but markedly takes longer to be too far over to the left.

I have ordered 3 Good Year Efficient Grip performance tyres today and have them fitted tomorrow. I asked at WIM for prices - too expensive (around £90 + VAT if I remember). I'm getting them locally fitted at £85 each! Changing also the one Mich tyre on n/s/r to complement the Good Year tyre on o/s/r due to a puncture that went through the carcass and could not be repaired in summer 2019. So car will have Good Year on both axles both corners per axle.

Joe has asked me to ring him and let him know how the car behaves with the new tyres on the front - one os badly worn on the inside due to excessive negative camber and both are cracking on the sidewalls due to age despite having 4mm tread.

The local tyre guys said the tyres will likely be out of shape - quite possible with Michelins he said.

The service at WIM was very good. They clearly know their stuff. The only niggle I discovered at the tyre place is the front under tray is falling off when looking from the front under the number plate and bumper. Was it tightened adequately when it was put back on after the new camber bolts? Anyway, not gonna do a 320 mile trip to have that secured! I've asked the tyre guy to tighten it when he does the tyre if he has a ramp spare. failing that,will take it to a local garage and ask them to put a new bolt on it and secure it properly.
Be interested to hear when you get the new tyres on as well buddy . Good job
 

Naraic

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And...how much did you pay WIM?
 
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cheshireE220

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And...how much did you pay WIM?
Fixed charge is £165 + VAT (which I think is their standard charge) + cost of parts. 3 Camber bolts at £30 + VAT. Total £306

Thankfully, I had asked these charges before booking the car in - considerably dearer than local Hunter jig guys who charge around £50 for front axle and £35 for rear axle adjustment. WIM do a lot of this stuff. They get the Ferrari's from DK Engineering also.

They stock the parts and hopefully in this one visit, the car is sorted. Local indy wanted to take a look, see what it needs and then estimate cost of fix then book it in again for the job. That makes 2 round trips adding up to over 100 miles, two invoices, one for checking the car (£42 or £84 inc VAT) and then the invoice for the fix - 1hr labour at £70/hr + 3 camber bolts = £90 for 3 bolts + VAT = £192 inc VAT + £42 (half hour labour) = £234 or £192 + £84 = £276

Fingers crossed, the 3 new tyres solves the issue in its entirety
 
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Rory

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Gulp at the cost! I might be mis-remembering this but I'm sure it was £50 when I went, some years ago. My car just needed the front toe adjusting.
 
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cheshireE220

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It has improved but still pulls to the left (takes longer) and wheel still wobbles at low speed which Joe put down to the shot front tyres. new tyres to be fitted next week (Tuesday) to try out and will call Joe to let him know (as per his request). If it still pulls to the left I will push for a free alignment check/adjust with the new tyres. I dont mind the 320 mile round-trip - it is good to burn off the soot in the DPF and achieve some steady speed cruising over a distance.
 
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cheshireE220

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Gulp at the cost! I might be mis-remembering this but I'm sure it was £50 when I went, some years ago. My car just needed the front toe adjusting.

If it was only the front toe that is about right at a fast-fit sort of outfit. of pricing. Porsche indy specialist that use the Hunter system charge typically around £140 + VAT and carry all the parts that are required.

When I rang them I asked and was quoted fixed standard charge is £165 + VAT PLUS cost of any parts. I searched online for prices - I could only find a price going back to 2009 at £100 inc VAT. Ten years on and a stronger established business and reputation they have probably increased it over the years. Their tyre prices are high! I asked a price on Good Year Efficient Grip Performance - quoted over £90 + VAT. I bought them online for £81 each fitted - nominated local National Tyres depot for fitting next week Tuesday.

My toe and camber were both out. It has been staggered for toe and caster to try and compensate for the left-side pull. Some reading still show in red print - but Joe says that setting them up with factory settings does not overcome the issue. The staggered toe and castor will not scrub or increase tyre wear.

There are a lot of people who probably don't know what they are doing - thats my impression certainly with the Porsche and now Mercedes. These guys are not in that camp - Joe had an R8 on the ramp before mine and they get the Ferrari work from DK Engineering down the road.
 
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LostKiwi

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They also get a lot of BTCC work as well as other Motorsport work.
 
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cheshireE220

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They also get a lot of BTCC work as well as other Motorsport work.
I guess they price to the market and for their experience. My car does not run factory settings anymore.
I will put on new tyres as suggested and call Joe. If it is still not cured, I will ask/push for a free alignment check (a check is free anyway) and free fine adjustment with the new tyres as the adjustment was made with shot front tyres.

How an outfit like this could charge £50 per axle for adjustment is difficult to comprehends - they are very much specialists but shift volume also. Ramp utilisation is probably high 90+%.
 

Rory

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If it was only the front toe that is about right at a fast-fit sort of outfit. of pricing.

It was at W-I-M. I just dug the invoice out - it was in 2010 so I suppose prices have changed and maybe W-I-M have gone up in the world.

They were regarded as the "go-to" people then though. To be honest, there was no particular "show" (I'm not sure that's the right expression, but anyway) when I took the car there. It was all pretty brief - as said previously, they said it looked pretty good and just adjusted the toe. There was no suggestion of camber bolts etc. It still rolls on lock in whichever direction the road camber is, and it still doesn't feel "planted" on the road.


Basic 4 wheel alignment is pretty cheap bearing in mind the kit and time required - I've used both the place in Liverpool mentioned in the thread for a check on my car after I had new tyres and the place in Ledsham where I got my daughter's car done. Both charged £35+VAT. The owner of the place in Ledsham seemed astonished I'd come so far - I'm 16 miles away, and that's the long way around!


I should say I would cheerfully give someone £300 if my car could be made to track straight on the motorway and feel "planted" (and without messing up tyre wear). I've learned to live with now, but holding the car to right on motorways is quite wearing. Luckily I only use it a couple of times per month.
 
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