What disconnects the transmission when you are in park?

[rich.g.williams]

changing the ATF and filter alone may not be enough to completely fix your problem.

perhaps there is a bad connection in the wiring/connectors from ETC computer to electroplate or something not quite right on the electroplate.

 

[reuben]

Yes, personally I think a stuck solenoid is likely. Anyway, lets see what happens after the gearbox service first...

 

[reuben]

Well it has its gearbox service today - replaced ATF, filter, gasket and also the lockup clutch solenoid. Will see tomorrow morning whether the problem is solved. I have a feeling it wont be....

 

[rich.g.williams]

it might be fixed (at least temporarily) because the whole process may well have disturbed whatever was causing the fault

please let us know if it is fixed

 

[reuben]

As I suspected, it still stalls. Shame, still it was worth a go as a relatively low cost option. Not really sure what to do next as I suspect changing the TC also might not solve the problem and would be another step in a very expensive process of elimination...

Cant help thinking back to the fact it only seemed to happen after the battery was changed. Cant help wondering what controls the mix of fuel when its cold...?

 

[rich.g.williams]

reuben,

just re-read the entire thread and I have to apologise to you for missing the obvious which is:-

if the TC is completely locked up (broken) when starting from cold a healthy transmission will engage drive with a jolt and quite likely stall engine

maybe the ETC computer ignores this very obvious TC error

one other thing what is idle speed rpm when engine is started cold?

 

[reuben]

Yes, I was thinking about idle speed too, hence starting another thread about this. The idle speed is fairly typical I think, at about 630 ish.

I always assumed it was the lockup clutch being stuck together when its cold. My first thought was therefore that it was whatever controlled this clutch. Since solenoids are known to stick sometimes when its cold then I thought the lockup clutch solenoid was likely. Also since another person on this forum had the same problem and fixed it just with a gearbox service, I thought a good first step would be to have a gearbox service (oil filter gasket) and also change the lockup solenoid. Shame it didnt fix it.

I am now not sure what the next step is. I could have the TC changed but thats going to cost £600 - £800.

 

[reuben]

I should add, in response to your post, that the TC certainly isnt 'completely broken' as the car drives fine for the rest of the day after I have managed to get it off the drive. I can even leave it in the office car park for 10 hours and it wont stall when I start it again (although it might dip a bit when I engage into 'D').

 

[rich.g.williams]

the 630 rpm idle speed is that when engine cold too?

it certainly is strange that 10 hrs parked (at office) does not cause fault and 12+ hrs at home does

do you park on a slope? if yes try parking the other way around

does it happen in warmer weather?

apparently the TC clutch is very sensitive to any water (water can damage it)

it is possible that it will improve after the oil change has had a chance to take effect, there are also various additives (dont know if they are recommended) that could improve matters

 

[reuben]

I did another test today: I turned the car on and left it idling for around 10-15 minutes. When I then put it into drive, the stalling did not occur. I didnt notice some changes in the pitch of the engine tone over the time it was idling.

What this proves, I dont know. But it was interesting to see that the problem can rectify itself without the gears being engaged.

 

[MPK]

Reuben - I have the exact same symptoms on my W210.

Have been following your post for a while now and every symptom you have described, is mirrored by my car. My car had an ATF oil change 20k miles ago.
Only happens in the morning.
Drive for a few yards down the road - I can stop and no stall or shuddering.
Cold weather affects it - The colder the morning, the worst the symptoms.

I have not checked the ATF level yet.
Or had my codes read.

Popular opinion seems to be to change Torque Convertor - A big layout before Xmas !
( £600 + )

Like you, Mine feels like a mechanical problem - The cold weather making "something" stick or bind overnight.

Due to currently working away from home without the car, I have not had time to get the codes read or dip the ATF level.

Was hoping that someone on this forum has had a similar fault with a happy ( cheaper !!) ending.

Good luck and please keep posting.

Mike

 

[rich.g.williams]

reuben,

in the 10 -15 minutes of idling the transmission fluid heats up (passes through its cooler and in this instance heated by engine radiator)

so the conclusion may be that the problem does not occur when the transmission fluid heats up

that said a lot of other things heat up in the 10 - 15 mins of idling time

 

[MPK]

Rich -

My car response is similiar - The longer I leave it to warm up the lesser the symptoms.
Which originally made me think that the ATF level was low.
Figuring that as the ATF temp rises, the ATF level rises.

On a really cold morning, the car stalls immediatley - Leave it to idle for 5 mins on the drive and I can then control the initial neutral - reverse - neutral juggling to get ot off the drive.
The juggling back and forward from Reverse to neutral prevents stalling.

 

[grober]

You may be looking at this from the wrong perspective. You are blaming the gearbox for putting extra load on the engine causing it to stall , whereas it may be that the cold engine is not responding adequately to the extra load demanded by putting the car in gear. Those cold idle rpms seem a little slow to me.

 

[reuben]

I have begun to think the same thing. Although the cold idle rpm is correct, I suspect might be something to do with the mix i.e. how the car manages the 'choke' in cold weather. Does anyone know anything about this? Does the car have a warm up regulator or something?

Try this test: take handbrake off and put your left foot on the brake and then use your right foot to keep the revs at 1000 and then put it into drive. If I do this it doesn't stall and I can then drive it normally straight after.

 

[television]

Grobers post was interesting and thoughtful,,,when my MAF failed on my V70r it would just stall and cut out when pulling away,not every time just when you did not want it to.
Though the MAF is not part of any warm up or idle circuit, we have had many post when this stalling has been the MAF

 

[rich.g.williams]

mike,

this symptom where the car stalls when put into drive on a cold morning could be explained in a few ways:-

1. The torque converter clutch plates are sticking
2. The torque converter solenoid is energised (shorting wire in the wiring loom)
3. A TCM fault which energises the torque converter solenoid from cold
4. As Malcolm and Grober are suggesting something relating to engine management
5. Something else

One thing I can confirm is that if the torque converter lock up clutch solenoid is energised while car is idling, stationary and in 2nd gear (probably 1st gear too) the engine will stall

 

[MPK]

Rich - Let me answer these one by one please.


1. The torque converter clutch plates are sticking
- Sounds feasible - Anyway of testing / proving / eliminating this ( ATF/filter change) ?

2. The torque converter solenoid is energised (shorting wire in the wiring loom)
- The overnight cold symptoms only, rule this one out for me.

3. A TCM fault which energises the torque converter solenoid from cold
- Yes. Warm mornings or letting car idle for 10 mins reduces symptoms.

4. As Malcolm and Grober are suggesting something relating to engine management
- For MAF, I disconnected and replaced with a spare - No change.
- I also thought parking brake may be sticking overnight - thus, left off 1 night - No change.
- It may be outside of the Gearbox, but I just cant think beyond the gearbox for now.

5. Something else
- Indeed, your pics of water ingress into your box got me thinking an ATF change / flush would work wonders. However, I know Reuben did this on his to no avail.

One thing I can confirm is that if the torque converter lock up clutch solenoid is energised while car is idling, stationary and in 2nd gear (probably 1st gear too) the engine will stall[
- So what would make the TC lock up clutch solenoid, engage at idle due to cold ?

For now, I'm thinking TCM or electroplate.

Working away at the moment, thus not able to get car checked out.

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions so far. ( Keep em coming ! )

Mike.

 

[rich.g.williams]

there is a rough way to monitor the TC lock up clutch solenoid but it involves some electrical ability, the TCM connector can be unplugged and its outer shell removed and then a wire pushed into its pin pin 17 (from the wire end) make a circuit of an LED in series with 1K resistor (observing correct LED polarity) and push other end wire into pin 38 (pin 38 is positive from TCM) the LED will illuminate when TC solenoid is ON

take care if you try this not to damage anything or short circuit anything you can then see if the TC solenoid is ON at cold start

the mechanical binding of the TC lock up is harder to check for, all I can say is that when car is in S it starts in 1st gear when in C it starts in 2nd gear if the lock up is binding the car will much more readily stall in 2nd gear the C setting you could think of one or two other tests for this take care

if there is a lot of water inside maybe this would be causing your probs - seems unlikely but possible

two other possibilities:-

-the valve which controls the lock up is sticking - but seems very unlikely because it was working OK when warm and a spring pushes it back to start position as soon as engine stops
-the lock up solenoid seals are leaking when cold

 

[Kevsta]

My E200K has the same problem of stalling in D or R first thing in the morning. The only thing is the TC was changed in October - done around 3k miles since. This was one of the problems that caused me to have the TC changed in the first place. However, I have contacted the company in Birmingham who fitted it and they are having the car back tomorrow for a day or two to work through the issue (hopefully). Before contacting them I had changed the 02 sensor, CPS and completed an ATF oil and filter change with no positive result. It would seem to me that the TC is playing up, but I'm no gearbox specialist and hopefully this isn't cost me a further arm and leg to have put right, especially as 'her indoors' says "just live with it and move the between D to N to R to work the oil in the mornings - what's the problem?".
It's just not right, when the TC has just been replaced that this issue should be present.
I'll keep you updated as to their diagnosis.