When will Mercedes Diesels catch up with their German Brethren?

C350Carl

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Why are Mercedes holding back on developing/introducing a potent diesel engine like the 35D Series BMW's and 3.0 Bi-TDi Audi engines? Even VW are getting in on the act now with a 2.0L 4 Cyl 268bhp Engine that will return 60mpg! Yet give a sub 6 second 0-62mph.

It's not as if this is new technology either as both the BMW & Audi Bi-Turbo Diesel engines have been out a while now. Granted the VW Engine is new. But it will certainly be a game changer for some. Especially with the 10 Speed DSG Gearbox!

Just curious if anyone know's of any particular reason behind it? It seems to me they are starting to get left behind in terms of engine development. I like powerful diesels and if Mercedes introduced a diesel (C or E Class) with north of 300bhp i would be signing up for one tomorrow!
 
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KennyN

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Got to agree with you there Carl , if it wasn't too expensive for my budget I may have considered a new ish 640d, it has 313hp / 60 in 5.3s / £145 annual road tax / 53 av. mpg all of which which puts my CLS in the shade which has a similar motor displacement.

Kenny
 

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Funny I was just thinking why haven't BMW gone V6 like the others..'tho their 6 pot oil burner is possibly one of the best and its been around a long time.
 

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I agree about powerful diesels. But Mercedes went for the V6 while BMW went for developing more and more and also seem to have avoided the persistent quality problems that affected Mercedes. Even the V8 E420CDi [left hand drive only!] seems to be left behind and it had the makings of a very powerful motor.
 

Xtractorfan

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The Merc V8 is a fantastic engine we have one in our 08 ML 420, It only seems to come in the ML, it would be a fantastic engine for the S class.
 

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There are a number of areas where Daimler seem to be left far behind. Talking to a Tier1 auto guy today and he believes they are on a cost cutting exercise again. Model diversity is more important than excellence it seems.
The 350 CDI has actually lost HP in the new version versus my 2012 CLS.

Perhaps they should buy the BMW units on license!!
 
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C350Carl

C350Carl

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I just find it odd that a "Premium" Car maker is letting themselves fall behind.

Unless of course they're going to wow us by sticking an F1 Engine in an AMG at some point. :p

I've driven 330D, 335D and 535D BMW's and the current 313bhp Audi.

They are deceptively quick, embarrassing for some cars, and very refined indeed. Especially for big cars.

I was surprised to see the current 350Diesels are less powerful than the late 2011 engines.
 

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I have also wondered this! In my opinion BMW have always been ahead with diesel technology! With there Tri turbo setup in the M550d, X5M50d and X6M50d being a 3.0 litre with three turbos and we have tuned a couple of these and they are insane!!! Making 420bhp and 800nm of torque means same power output as the V8 M3 and double the torque!

Also the 35d we have made 370bhp and 800nm with not many changes to the set up at all! The Audi SQ5 diesel also gains very well but i have been waiting for Mercedes to bring something new to the table!!!

As for the BMW still using straight six i love it ;)

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I have actually been looking at chopping our C350 CDI in for a GL420 CDI :) how does 1000nm of torque sound??? lol
 

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It's funny this is mentioned. My friend was chatting to a few people, mostly Germans - he travels in Europe a lot and spent a lot of time in Germany - and while all agreed that the BMW Diesels were great performers and the numbers (torque, power, mpg) all looked good, they had a real problem with reliability. This is from people who've been running various BMW diesels for an extended period, so it does carry weight. They also expressed the opinion that the cars might have been "over tuned" to get their impressive figures, hence the issues.

To be clear, this isn't MY view, nor my mates, it's just that we were both surprised to hear this from several sources. Not driven any new BMW diesels of late, don't actually plan to either, though the same friend did have a 320 (I think, it was certainly a smaller engined one) Diesel as a hire car while in Europe and liked it. He described it as quite responsive, the economy was "ok" (whatever that means, he has a E350 CDI Coupe currently) but the car sounded harsh under acceleration and, more critically, was very noisy at 70mph.

Personally, I've always considered BMW to be the Sportier brand vs. Mercedes, but it's the Mercedes driving experience I liked vs. other cars - especially the 3 litre V6 in my C350 CDI, though of course there were more frugal options if I so chose.

My C350 is plenty fast enough for me, it's actually quite scary how quickly it gets up to speed and relentlessly continues to accelerate if you let it. Equally though it's a fantastically relaxing drive when pottering, smooth and very very quiet. Obviously I'm a little biased, but we choose our cars based on our preferences (Bias) after all :)

Anyone else heard / have experience with reliability on the newer BMW engines?

Oh, considering the 350 CDI can be tuned to 315bhp with 550 ft.lbs of torque without any hardware changes...well, I thought that was pretty good! I'd love to pop some performance air filters on it and tinker with the exhaust when it's a little older...

Scoob.
 

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I just find it odd that a "Premium" Car maker is letting themselves fall behind.

i find it odd that a 'premium' car maker is buying engines in from Renault, so i think the cost cutting thing could well be true!

take the latest generation 4 cylinder diesel as fitted to the c class (OM651) as an example. why on earth would someone swap from a duplex chain which has always been reliable, to a simplex chain which is renowned for being problematic? and then to put the timing gear at the REAR of the engine???? i fail to see what POSSIBLE benefit that can have!
 
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C350Carl

C350Carl

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I have actually been looking at chopping our C350 CDI in for a GL420 CDI :) how does 1000nm of torque sound??? lol



Can you not get 1000nm from my 231ps C350? ;)
 
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Neil H

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I have also wondered this! In my opinion BMW have always been ahead with diesel technology! With there Tri turbo setup in the M550d, X5M50d and X6M50d being a 3.0 litre with three turbos and we have tuned a couple of these and they are insane!!! Making 420bhp and 800nm of torque means same power output as the V8 M3 and double the torque!

Also the 35d we have made 370bhp and 800nm with not many changes to the set up at all! The Audi SQ5 diesel also gains very well but i have been waiting for Mercedes to bring something new to the table!!!

As for the BMW still using straight six i love it ;)

Regards

Team GAD

I have a 2 car shortlist for next year, CLS400 or X5 50d. What do you think you could do for the 400? There is a Brabus upgrade to 385
 
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C350Carl

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It's funny this is mentioned. My friend was chatting to a few people, mostly Germans - he travels in Europe a lot and spent a lot of time in Germany - and while all agreed that the BMW Diesels were great performers and the numbers (torque, power, mpg) all looked good, they had a real problem with reliability. This is from people who've been running various BMW diesels for an extended period, so it does carry weight. They also expressed the opinion that the cars might have been "over tuned" to get their impressive figures, hence the issues.



To be clear, this isn't MY view, nor my mates, it's just that we were both surprised to hear this from several sources. Not driven any new BMW diesels of late, don't actually plan to either, though the same friend did have a 320 (I think, it was certainly a smaller engined one) Diesel as a hire car while in Europe and liked it. He described it as quite responsive, the economy was "ok" (whatever that means, he has a E350 CDI Coupe currently) but the car sounded harsh under acceleration and, more critically, was very noisy at 70mph.



Personally, I've always considered BMW to be the Sportier brand vs. Mercedes, but it's the Mercedes driving experience I liked vs. other cars - especially the 3 litre V6 in my C350 CDI, though of course there were more frugal options if I so chose.



My C350 is plenty fast enough for me, it's actually quite scary how quickly it gets up to speed and relentlessly continues to accelerate if you let it. Equally though it's a fantastically relaxing drive when pottering, smooth and very very quiet. Obviously I'm a little biased, but we choose our cars based on our preferences (Bias) after all :)



Anyone else heard / have experience with reliability on the newer BMW engines?



Oh, considering the 350 CDI can be tuned to 315bhp with 550 ft.lbs of torque without any hardware changes...well, I thought that was pretty good! I'd love to pop some performance air filters on it and tinker with the exhaust when it's a little older...



Scoob.


I find that surprising too. Considering the police use them an awful lot and we use a few in work.

I've not heard of anything that would put me off buying one. Apart from the drab interiors in them! Having said that a friend bought a new 125D M Sport in July this year and asked me to "new car detail" it for him. I was actually very impressed with the interior on it and quite liked it. My boss has a 2yr old version of the same car and the difference between them is vast.

I've not sat in anything newer than 2013 model so maybe they have changed a bit.

But one of the blokes in work has a mapped 2011 535D and that thing is FAST. It would keep with my highly tuned vRS up to about 100mph before I would be able to pull away. He leaves my C350 for dust. Even with the tuning box. Even when I eventually get it mapped I won't get anywhere near him. He still gets over 43mpg easily. Even with his "extra weight right foot" mod!

Don't get me wrong I like my C350 diesel. But I would like it to be faster. I'm hoping that when I come to change it in about 3yrs that Mercedes will have got their act together and stopped cutting costs!

I might have to go and have a word in Toto's shell! ;)

Oh if you come across any performance air filters please let me know.
 
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Scoob

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I find that surprising too. Considering the police use them an awful lot and we use a few in work.

I've not heard of anything that would put me off buying one. Apart from the drab interiors in them! Having said that a friend bought a new 125D M Sport in July this year and asked me to "new car detail" it for him. I was actually very impressed with the interior on it and quite liked it. My boss has a 2yr old version of the same car and the difference between them is vast.

I've not sat in anything newer than 2013 model so maybe they have changed a bit.

But one of the blokes in work has a mapped 2011 535D and that thing is FAST. It would keep with my highly tuned vRS up to about 100mph before I would be able to pull away. He leaves my C350 for dust. Even with the tuning box. Even when I eventually get it mapped I won't get anywhere near him. He still gets over 43mpg easily. Even with his "extra weight right foot" mod!

Don't get me wrong I like my C350 diesel. But I would like it to be faster. I'm hoping that when I come to change it in about 3yrs that Mercedes will have got their act together and stopped cutting costs!

I might have to go and have a word in Toto's shell! ;)

Oh if you come across any performance air filters please let me know.

Yeah, I thought they were considered fairly bomb proof - a reputation most German cars have.

It's funny, my second car is a tuned Impreza - which will destroy the Merc in any point-to-point race, it's really a very quick car, though I've tuned it for response (smaller turbo) rather than out right power. Despite this, the Merc still feels very rapid indeed on the rare occasions I put my toe down in it. The biggest issue the Merc suffers from really is lack of traction, it's too torquey for just rear wheel drive, though a limited slip diff would doubtless help - I have priced one up at £1,600 fitted!

Will do re: air filters, though I've already spoken to K&N directly and they're not planning one for our model year sadly. Never got a reply from Greenstuff.

Scoob.
 

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I find that surprising too. Considering the police use them an awful lot and we use a few in work.

from what I have read and heard, many officers hate the beamers and dearly miss the Volvo's. The beamers ate always in for repair, so seemingly don't stand up well to hard use.
 
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C350Carl

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from what I have read and heard, many officers hate the beamers and dearly miss the Volvo's. The beamers ate always in for repair, so seemingly don't stand up well to hard use.

I know they miss the Volvo's for the comfort. But the ones we have and the officers i work with regularly quite like the BMW's

Maybe they don't have as hard a life down in Kent as they do elsewhere.
 

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But one of the blokes in work has a mapped 2011 535D and that thing is FAST. It would keep with my highly tuned vRS up to about 100mph before I would be able to pull away. He leaves my C350 for dust. Even with the tuning box. Even when I eventually get it mapped I won't get anywhere near him. He still gets over 43mpg easily. Even with his "extra weight right foot" mod!

is the beemer a manual or auto? i know a few years back i had a 1999 E300 turbodiesel, and a mate had a 2005 530d. both were auto, and his beemer couldnt shake my E300 below 50mph. after that, the newer technology (common rail over old school injector pump, variable geometry turbo over fixed vane turbo etc) got him away from me, but not by as much as i expected.

we tried it out on a hill local to us (where i grew up) and had the auto on the E300 remained in 4th when i pushed the pedal hard to the floor (instead of 3rd passing the max torque etc for the engine) i think i could have matched the beemer there too. so despite my car being 6 years older, running with low compression etc (engine was shot, basically) and old fashioned technology, it was so close to a match for the beemer it was scary. my mate had tried the manual version (of the 530d) too and said it was noticably quicker than the auto but having had to have operations on his leg meant the auto was more suitable for him, although he would have had the manual if he couldve managed it for long periods
 
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C350Carl

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His is an Auto. He has the MSport version so i think it's 7 or 8 speed.
 

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I have actually been looking at chopping our C350 CDI in for a GL420 CDI :) how does 1000nm of torque sound??? lol

Sounds like a lot of broken pieces of metal rattling round in a box as the gearbox explodes ?
 


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