Zero tolerance

[M80]

You are right enforcement is not the answer, training is. You pass your test at 17 & are never tested again.

In my case passed first time at 17 joined the army at 18, & driving what are now HGV3 vehicles. At 23 attended a 4 week HGV2 instructors course passed. At 25 attended a weeks conversion to HGV1 instructors course passed. At 27 attended a 4 week armoured track vehicle instructors course passed.

Joined the police service at 32 & then did all the police driving & riding courses.

I also think there should be limits on novice drivers, who gain positive endorsements granted through experience and added qualifications. So a driver of 5 years, 1st retest, may then drive a ncl and on motorways.
It's been recognised that more education is beneficial to those wishing to tow, why not for say carrying more than 1 passenger and driving a missile of greater than 1.2 tonnes for example?

I also think all visitors to the UK should take a CB Exam before driving on our roads, at the port of entry or the hire place.

 

[sonic]

I spent 12 years in Germany with the army, they have some good pointers. Only driving schools can teach you to drive, & there is a minimum number of hours. Compulsory training at night & on autobahns.

Speeders are done on a sliding scale of fines, starts at about €30. Points only apply above 20Kph & again on a sliding scale.

The Germans are proud of the speed limit free autobahns, some are now restricted to 130Kph. They will remind you there accident rate is lower than Austria, which has a national speed limit. Belgium & Luxembourg & the worst countries in Western Europe for accidents.

I quite regularly visit Germany & on occasions drive well above 100mph for long periods. Do it in this country & I would be banned. Managed 155mph on a VFR800 about 20 years ago on a very quiet autobahn.

 

[davemercedes]

How about fining Chief Constables for every x 1 burglary or assault they don't solve?

Thank heavens every force is short of £olly or we'd all be walking by now!

 

[rifiki]

Or realising that they are there at the sufferance of the people, to protect the people and NOT to tyrannise the people.

Where is the fact and data to show that exceeding the speed limit by 1mph puts people at risk?

For that matter, where is the fact and data to show 70mph is sensible? It was introduced as a fuel saving measure during the Second War and has nothing to do with safety.

Blindly imposing laws that rely on a Opto- mechanical indicator (speedo needle) and human interpretation

(quick glance) is never going to wash with the people who submit to those laws.

When the 70mph limit was introduced (1967 I think) the 2IC of the RAC “this report contains more red herrings than the largest Grimsby trawler could hold” Total bu*****. Could be the same for council 50 mph limit.

 

[ajlsl600]

no issues with training as long as it is state price controlled and not just another link wedged into the food chain that joe bloggs gets milked on .

 

[anglaslt]

I also think all visitors to the UK should take a CB Exam before driving on our roads, at the port of entry or the hire place.

So, from a post about the appropriately named Mr Bang'em, the Speedfinder General, proposing zero tolerance towards speeders in the UK you somehow conclude that visitors to UK should take an examination to meet the UK's exacting driving standards?

Statistically, are foreign drivers a greater risk then? What will this exam consist of? Is an EU licence, in your view, insufficient proof of driving competence?

I would just mention that in LT (for example) the practical and theoretical tests are not so easy and you must prove a course of professional instruction. Even at renewal, you must appear in person, produce a medical certificate and undergo (and pass) stringent eyesight tests for colour blindness and peripheral vision. In the UK you can just re-apply time after time online, correct?

Will your scheme also apply to UK drivers visting mainland Europe? Wow, I can just imagine the queue at Eurotunnel. I hope it doesn't include language competence.

I think you are over worried about foreigners

 

[M80]

So, from a post about the appropriately named Mr Bang'em, the Speedfinder General, proposing zero tolerance towards speeders in the UK you somehow conclude that visitors to UK should take an examination to meet the UK's exacting driving standards?

Statistically, are foreign drivers a greater risk then? What will this exam consist of? Is an EU licence, in your view, insufficient proof of driving competence?

I would just mention that in LT (for example) the practical and theoretical tests are not so easy and you must prove a course of professional instruction. Even at renewal, you must appear in person, produce a medical certificate and undergo (and pass) stringent eyesight tests for colour blindness and peripheral vision. In the UK you can just re-apply time after time online, correct?

Will your scheme also apply to UK drivers visting mainland Europe? Wow, I can just imagine the queue at Eurotunnel. I hope it doesn't include language competence.

I think you are over worried about foreigners

Defensive Methinks.

My conclusion is that our roads are used by far too many with low driving standards and ability. A good driver, in a suitable car, can drive fast and safe when the congested roads allow for it.

I hadn't mentioned the eu or any specific part of it.
Are all eu licences proof of competence? Well truth is I don't know.
Should we be caused to prove competence when visiting the eu? That's their choice, but I don't see why any country should be restricted from improving safety standards for their roads and those that use them, so I see no reason why not.

Now one specific, and I'm sure there are other countries with a similar woeful style of giving a licence to drive.
Larisa learnt to driver in middle Russia. The town had 1 set of traffic lights and no roundabouts. While wide the roads couldn't be classed as dual carriageway. Signage was minimal. Parking was as you please.
She learnt in a Lada (whatever number). A lesson was 1 car shared by 8. During lessons of very limited car use, and on the test the car was never caused to go beyond 3rd gear. A hill start, as they don't have any, was a mound of earth at the test station. Handbrakes aren't used, as there are no hills.
In 2003 when she arrived in the UK she was legally allowed to drive for 2 years without need for any type of UK assessment. I insured her for my 2 litre BMW, capable of very high speed and acceleration.
It soon became clear to me that to allow her to drive here would have been ridiculous. The 1st drive, now on the wrong side of the road, she drove through a red light as she didn't know what it was. When I told her to pull over on a hill she was rolling backwards, you'll guess why.
On a busy road with more cars than she had ever seen the fear was apparent, the mistakes, well you can guess.
What had happened in Russia was that effectively she had bought her licence, but she was legal here.
The only reasonable course was for her to take lessons, be tested, and gain a real licence.

You are right that here we apply for a new licence, just a bit of red tape really. The 5 year retest system would pick up on the no longer incompetent, those with poor eye sight, but not poor health as doctors are already supposed to inform the DVLA of issues that would affect a patients ability there.
With a 2 year buffer period those that failed a retest have opportunity to become competent. If they are no longer able to do this should they be on our roads anyway?

The press have provided stories of ue citizens arriving here and driving the wrong way down motorways for example, in wagons sometimes. UK citizens have been caught doing the same. Testing might eliminate such things.
Anyone from a country with high driving standards wouldn't have difficulty passing a CB exam, those that can't pass one, well should they be on our roads anyway?

My concern is only partly about visitors with the right to drive unassessed here, but about the increasing numbers that cause problems on the roads due to a lack of competence.

 

[anglaslt]

Defensive Methinks.

Defensive? Yes, probably, but just occasionally it's needed. On this forum hardly ever.

At least @M80 you have your opinion based upon personal experience and I understand that. I just don't see your proposal as being a practical solution to what, in my view, is a relatively minor issue in the scheme of things. I drive a lot in mainland Europe and the UK and I just do not see enormous differences in driving standards. As an example, i read a lot of crticism of driving standards in Poland. I find Polish drivers fast, yes, but exceptionally tolerant and courteous.

Yes, of course, overseas drivers will have accidents, drive badly or simply get confused. Maybe though each country has more important issues to address before examining the driving standards of its visitors? I'm sure we could make our own list but here I'd put lack of enforcement and speeding at the very top of the list. When I visit the UK I'm most concerned these days about over aggressive enforcement and threatening road rage. The proposed zero tolerance policy on speeding is just another example of over aggressive enforcement along with running out of fuel now being classified as "dangerous driving" and driving on a dual carriageway at 40 as being "careless driving" Maybe exceptional circumstances, but really?

Ah well, at least I have had the opportunity to enjoy my driving in a more relaxed era that will never return.

 

[LostKiwi]

My experience of driving in France is that in general the driving standards are better than the UK (aside from the french penchant for tailgating).

 

[Naraic]

I take his zero tolerance remarks with a pinch of salt.

If the limit is now 70 + 10% plus 2 mph then how many try to drive at 79? Many I would hazard.

His remarks will leave those people in no doubt that they should be trying to drive closer to 70 than 80. I think that is what he is trying to do by his remarks.

 

[LostKiwi]

I take his zero tolerance remarks with a pinch of salt.

If the limit is now 70 + 10% plus 2 mph then how many try to drive at 79? Many I would hazard.

His remarks will leave those people in no doubt that they should be trying to drive closer to 70 than 80. I think that is what he is trying to do by his remarks.

Either that or being new to the job he's making noise to become noticed.

 

[ajlsl600]

My experience of driving in France is that in general the driving standards are better than the UK (aside from the french penchant for tailgating).

lk , cured that, dash cam and sticker saying so ,IN ENGLISH in back window now lovelly says they still race up behind her, but most back off sharply a few momemts later . 50 quid well spent i would say. and the french are ALWAYS driving with phone in ear .. roundabouts are a lottery.

 

[kid-jensen]

From the original wikipedia article:-

""Most drivers and pedestrians think speeds are generally too high".

Really? I think this is Fake News, or "madey-up" as we used to call it..

 

[davemercedes]

Defensive Methinks.

My conclusion is that our roads are used by far too many with low driving standards and ability. A good driver, in a suitable car, can drive fast and safe when the congested roads allow for it.

I hadn't mentioned the eu or any specific part of it.
Are all eu licences proof of competence? Well truth is I don't know.
Should we be caused to prove competence when visiting the eu? That's their choice, but I don't see why any country should be restricted from improving safety standards for their roads and those that use them, so I see no reason why not.

Now one specific, and I'm sure there are other countries with a similar woeful style of giving a licence to drive.
Larisa learnt to driver in middle Russia. The town had 1 set of traffic lights and no roundabouts. While wide the roads couldn't be classed as dual carriageway. Signage was minimal. Parking was as you please.
She learnt in a Lada (whatever number). A lesson was 1 car shared by 8. During lessons of very limited car use, and on the test the car was never caused to go beyond 3rd gear. A hill start, as they don't have any, was a mound of earth at the test station. Handbrakes aren't used, as there are no hills.
In 2003 when she arrived in the UK she was legally allowed to drive for 2 years without need for any type of UK assessment. I insured her for my 2 litre BMW, capable of very high speed and acceleration.
It soon became clear to me that to allow her to drive here would have been ridiculous. The 1st drive, now on the wrong side of the road, she drove through a red light as she didn't know what it was. When I told her to pull over on a hill she was rolling backwards, you'll guess why.
On a busy road with more cars than she had ever seen the fear was apparent, the mistakes, well you can guess.
What had happened in Russia was that effectively she had bought her licence, but she was legal here.
The only reasonable course was for her to take lessons, be tested, and gain a real licence.

You are right that here we apply for a new licence, just a bit of red tape really. The 5 year retest system would pick up on the no longer incompetent, those with poor eye sight, but not poor health as doctors are already supposed to inform the DVLA of issues that would affect a patients ability there.
With a 2 year buffer period those that failed a retest have opportunity to become competent. If they are no longer able to do this should they be on our roads anyway?

The press have provided stories of ue citizens arriving here and driving the wrong way down motorways for example, in wagons sometimes. UK citizens have been caught doing the same. Testing might eliminate such things.
Anyone from a country with high driving standards wouldn't have difficulty passing a CB exam, those that can't pass one, well should they be on our roads anyway?

My concern is only partly about visitors with the right to drive unassessed here, but about the increasing numbers that cause problems on the roads due to a lack of competence.

You picked on the right country, Martin...

I spent about 3 months on a project visiting Moscow. Thankfully (well almost, thankfully!) we were taken everywhere by taxi.

The standard of driving generally bordered on "dangerous". The thing is, the people quite frankly don't know how to drive - and I don't mean to be rude when I say that - they were pitchforked almost overnight from a car population of aged Ladas etc to modern vehicles (many of them more up-market than the normal vehicles we see running around everywhere) and an absolutely massive growth in traffic. City junctions - where we would have a yellow hatchbox are a minefield of "don't look at the driver, take your chance... and just go!" and every so often the police turn up, blow a few whistles, have a chat and a fag (in the centre of the road) and after 5 minutes of that they get fed up and leave. I saw a PC pointing a radar hair-dryer one morning and the following day the taxi went the same way. The driver was one of the few young ones who spoke quite good English and I told him to look out - he laughed and said "Thanks, but don't worry, in Russia 50 Roubles takes care of anything like that!" At motorway exits they manage to turn a 2-lane exit into FOUR lanes - first they fill the hard shoulder and then build up another three lanes of traffic. Near our hotel the main road had four wide lanes each side. In the morning there were often six lanes of traffic each way. We saw an accident scene most days - especially in the mornings.

We left for the airport late one night and the driver said - "No worry... I get you there in time"... At one of those motorway exits he stayed in the middle lane and passed hundreds of cars queuing then at the last minute he saw a space and shot straight across and jammed his way in (quite well actually) - but I still closed my eyes! We used a regular cross country short cut through through a huge industrial area on a 2-way/2-lane back road (where we would have a 30 limit and tbh the traffic here would probably do 40) - every taxi we took ran through it at 70 - 90. That might have been amusing if I was still in my 20's but as my colleague and I were in our late 60's we weren't too amused. There was a guy getting out of a truck )his towards us) and we flew by with a couple of inches only to spare. My colleague took his inside leg measurement!
- I told my director I wasn't being paid enough the following day!

Those who think I'm romancing only need to search for Russian Traffic on YouTube. Some of it's amusing but the bad driving is only half the problem - if you upset someone, it's not unusual to see them get out of the car and those who do are usually built like all-in wrestlers or armed with a pickaxe or even a revolver - and I'm not kidding!

On the other side of the coin though, the people we worked with were really pleasant and some of the young ladies were absolutely gorgeous (and nice with it) so hopefully the road conditions will improve over the years...

 

[M80]

No your not romancing.
5 visits to RU and I had seen / experienced enough.
Picked up at Moscow airport for a hundred mile, 3 hour drive (Sheremetyevo is the right side of the shitty).
His old Volga, a bus for a car, developed a flat battery, it was night. He pulled over on the M10 and with matches for light, the car as all vehicles over there smelled a lot of their fuel, attempted with crappy pliers to tension the loose fan belt, it failed. When we arrived at Tver, w/o lights, a local Lada driving plod pulled him over, a 3 minute chat, a transfer of some kind and we were on our way, still w/o lights. BTW street lighting was rare.

A chap had his car nicked. He contacted his Mafia, they found out who had it. That Mafia were bigger than the other Mafia so it was returned.

I could go on and on and on.

Edit: Should've added that there is much more order over there now. The Mafias are better controlled by Putin as he is the new Mafia and bigger than the rest put together.
We're supposed to be going over in april, 1st time for 15 years. After writing that I'll be lucky to get out again.

 

[davemercedes]

No your not romancing.
5 visits to RU and I had seen / experienced enough.
Picked up at Moscow airport for a hundred mile, 3 hour drive (Sheremetyevo is the right side of the shitty).
His old Volga, a bus for a car, developed a flat battery, it was night. He pulled over on the M10 and with matches for light, the car as all vehicles over there smelled a lot of their fuel, attempted with crappy pliers to tension the loose fan belt, it failed. When we arrived at Tver, w/o lights, a local Lada driving plod pulled him over, a 3 minute chat, a transfer of some kind and we were on our way, still w/o lights. BTW street lighting was rare.

A chap had his car nicked. He contacted his Mafia, they found out who had it. That Mafia were bigger than the other Mafia so it was returned.

I could go on and on and on.

Edit: Should've added that there is much more order over there now. The Mafias are better controlled by Putin as he is the new Mafia and bigger than the rest put together.
We're supposed to be going over in april, 1st time for 15 years. After writing that I'll be lucky to get out again.

Naah... I bet you'll have a super time! But let other people do the driving!

 

[Brizzle]

I take his zero tolerance remarks with a pinch of salt.

If the limit is now 70 + 10% plus 2 mph then how many try to drive at 79? Many I would hazard.

His remarks will leave those people in no doubt that they should be trying to drive closer to 70 than 80. I think that is what he is trying to do by his remarks.

This is incorrect. The limit (or at least one of them) is 70mph. The 10% +2 is guidance provided the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) to all Police officers to apply their judgement in each case - it is NOT a God-given right to drive at 79mph.

Apologies if I come across as a bit overzealous here but excess and inappropriate speed are a pet hate of mine - no personal offense meant

 

[Craiglxviii]

So we should limit all cars to 70mph then. Perhaps they could be designed to do no more than that? That would certainly reduce the cost of them, by around 20-25% at a rough guess.

Or we could ask the question- are the speed limits we have appropriate for our roads? Could they be moved up or down dependent of traffic and weather conditions? Would this be a better argument to have instead? Maybe we could look at the German model and see how efficient (or not) their unlimited Autobahne are.

Then there’s the attitude of this Chief Constable. Police are here to enforce the law? Oh no. COURTS enforce the law. The police in this country operate under the Peelian Principles which means that they require the assent of the people. They do not enforce laws upon the people- they are there to protect the people under the powers granted them by law.

 

[LostKiwi]

Or maybe equip all cars with GPS and transceivers that detect speed limits and force the car to do that speed. As an adjunct we could equip them with cameras to monitor their surroundings and take away the steering wheel and brake control as after all its clear drivers cannot be trusted to drive the vehicles in a safe manner themselves. Then we can put all this nice men in speed partnership vans on the dole.

 

[turbopete]

Or maybe equip all cars with GPS and transceivers that detect speed limits and force the car to do that speed.

which will be great when you are trying to pass an HGV which has been holding you up for miles because you don't have the speed to pass them in the gaps between traffic etc. which is fine if you have the luxury of being able to go where you want, WHEN you want and take as LONG as you want. remember not everyone has that luxury. ive worked for courier firms in the past where drops have to be made before a certain time. sometimes the drops are 20 mins apart time wise on the delivery sheets but are a 30 min drive as a minimum apart if something like this holds you up. the courier firms don't care. you either drive every inch of the way at the max legal speed, regardless of hold ups (so AVERAGE 60mph on A roads unless theres a permanent speed limit saying otherwise, such as through towns) or join the dole queue. been there, done that.