DPF, long trip tomorrow

[Mr Greedy]

I have an issue with my w213 as it does a regen every 2-300 miles no matter what the conditions

This could be symptomatic of a DPF that is reaching the end of its life and is filling with ash, as well as soot. The soot can be burnt off, ash cannot.

You might be able to deduce this by using a scanner like iCarsoft. You might be able to see ash content, or if after regen soot is not regularly getting well below 30%. Either DPF cleaning or a new DPF might be the answer. Discuss with a qualified Merc independent mechanic with STAR. E.g. Alex Foti (alexanderfoti)

 

[Mr Greedy]

Too many people with nothing better to do...

As that comment was directed at my thread, I think that's a little unkind. What people enjoy and choose to spend their time on is subjective and each to their own.

It took me an evening during lockdown. My diary hasn't been so full during the past year that I couldn't squeeze the LED mod in. As an engineer by training, it was as much driven by curiosity of interest as anything.

I posted the micro project and results only to try and be helpful because I thought some people might find it useful.

 

[David White]

This could be symptomatic of a DPF that is reaching the end of its life and is filling with ash, as well as soot. The soot can be burnt off, ash cannot.

You might be able to deduce this by using a scanner like iCarsoft. You might be able to see ash content, or if after regen soot is not regularly getting well below 30%. Either DPF cleaning or a new DPF might be the answer. Discuss with a qualified Merc independent mechanic with STAR. E.g. Alex Foti (alexanderfoti)

I watched My DPF regen a couple of weeks ago on an Icarsoft scanner, went exactly as described in a previous post except mine went to 0% full..

125 miles later, and multilpe short journeys from a very cold start (lockdown of course at the moment) and its showing 3 Grams of soot and 73% full.

just thought that anyone with an interest in this stuff might like to have some more data!

My Ash level is negligible as the car has only done 50K miles

 

[David White]

As that comment was directed at my thread, I think that's a little unkind. What people enjoy and choose to spend their time on is subjective and each to their own.

It took me an evening during lockdown. My diary hasn't been so full during the past year that I couldn't squeeze the LED mod in. As an engineer by training, it was as much driven by curiosity of interest as anything.

I posted the micro project and results only to try and be helpful because I thought some people might find it useful.

I am an electronics engineer too Mr Greedy, and the thirst for knowledge of how things work drives us to look into this stuff.

 

[Mr Greedy]

I watched My DPF regen a couple of weeks ago on an Icarsoft scanner, went exactly as described in a previous post except mine went to 0% full..

125 miles later, and multilpe short journeys from a very cold start (lockdown of course at the moment) and its showing 3 Grams of soot and 73% full.

just thought that anyone with an interest in this stuff might like to have some more data!

My Ash level is negligible as the car has only done 50K miles

Yes, I read that after I'd responded to the other question. I was a bit late in coming to this thread. It's an interesting difference in data shown.

WARNING. NERD ALERT!
As we know DPFs can become less effective over time, and the way data is shown on different scanners and Apps, it leads me to conclude that the following might be occurring.

Specific to the Opel DPF monitoring app I had (and you can download from the Play store and connect via bluetooth OBD adapter), the DPF fill reported after a regen with my 100k miles car (i.e. between 6% and high 20% something) is either:
- a combined ash and soot value, so even if soot is completely burnt off then the ash will contribute to the figure and never get truly down to zero; or,
- soot burn off is never truly 100% effective, which is especially true with non-ideal driving pattern during a regen, hence achieving fill levels as high as 28% for stop/start/acceleration/brake driving during regen; or,
- an older DPF is getting a bit knackered and responding less well to regens.

For the iCarsoft scanner, or the way data can be retrieved or presented specific to (your lower mileage) Mercedes:
- The fill level after regen can actually get down to 0% soot due to newer car, better DPF regen/burn process or cleaner burning engine in the first place etc: or,
- The ash level is either very low (% wise) or is not incorporated in the %full figure; or,
- The 0% fill level reported is really saying DPF regen successfully completed, rather than actually 0% fill.

The other part of the puzzle that doesn't intuitively sit right with me about the iCarsoft display/Mercedes data is that I wouldn't expect the DPF regen to start at '100%', because if it doesn't start, you're in trouble. I would expect the '100%' reported to actually mean something like the trigger point at which a DPF regen will take place at the next available opportunity. Conversely, with the Opel App I have more experience off, I expect that 80% was closer to an actual 80% of max capacity, and getting to 100% means you are starting to risk getting a blocked DPF.
Tony Dyson kindly reported his accurate observations of DPF regen and progress, starting at 100% in post #82 of this thread.

Ultimately, I'm just making lots of educated guesses on this, and it's a shame there isn't more published information on how they actually work.

For me, there were three primary purposes of wanting to know when a regen was happening, particularly with an 'older' car:
1. To save money, because I would expect interrupted regens would mean more fuel burnt during more frequent regens and interrupted regens could mean DPF replacement might be required sooner.
2. It gets really hot under the bonnet which I'm sure is not good for stuff under there, so I want to try and get in driving situations where I can move at speed (e.g. slight route change), or at least keep moving (e.g. anticipating junction lights early and slow down slightly to keep rolling at a lower speed, rather than going from 70mph to a standstill, then back up to speed again - motorway exit junctions are often a good example of this).
3. To avoid the risk of dumping diesel into the engine oil sump. I don't know if this is a problem on my car, but historically it has been an engine wrecker. Probably most famously on the Saab diesels of the naughties

 

[John Laidlaw]

Number 3 on your list is the one which gives me most concern. Referring to another post you did, you did mention some more modern diesels will continue an incomplete regen when next the car is run, I have been trying (without success so far) to ascertain whether modern BMW's have this sophistication.
I can tell you that I had an oil overfill on this car within a few days of getting it, leading me to believe the previous owner only did very short runs. I got that sorted out and I run mine twice a day 15 miles + at motorway speeds so shouldn't imagine there's a problem. I mentioned before I also got Bimmerlink/OBD Adapter to check it out (and force a manual regen if needed).
The Volvo XC90 we had was also run latterly only in town mainly and no surprise that had an over fill twice. That was a 2017 model, so I'm suspecting it wasn't sophisticated in this way either....

 

[David White]

Yes, I read that after I'd responded to the other question. I was a bit late in coming to this thread. It's an interesting difference in data shown.

WARNING. NERD ALERT!
As we know DPFs can become less effective over time, and the way data is shown on different scanners and Apps, it leads me to conclude that the following might be occurring.

Specific to the Opel DPF monitoring app I had (and you can download from the Play store and connect via bluetooth OBD adapter), the DPF fill reported after a regen with my 100k miles car (i.e. between 6% and high 20% something) is either:
- a combined ash and soot value, so even if soot is completely burnt off then the ash will contribute to the figure and never get truly down to zero; or,
- soot burn off is never truly 100% effective, which is especially true with non-ideal driving pattern during a regen, hence achieving fill levels as high as 28% for stop/start/acceleration/brake driving during regen; or,
- an older DPF is getting a bit knackered and responding less well to regens.

For the iCarsoft scanner, or the way data can be retrieved or presented specific to (your lower mileage) Mercedes:
- The fill level after regen can actually get down to 0% soot due to newer car, better DPF regen/burn process or cleaner burning engine in the first place etc: or,
- The ash level is either very low (% wise) or is not incorporated in the %full figure; or,
- The 0% fill level reported is really saying DPF regen successfully completed, rather than actually 0% fill.

The other part of the puzzle that doesn't intuitively sit right with me about the iCarsoft display/Mercedes data is that I wouldn't expect the DPF regen to start at '100%', because if it doesn't start, you're in trouble. I would expect the '100%' reported to actually mean something like the trigger point at which a DPF regen will take place at the next available opportunity. Conversely, with the Opel App I have more experience off, I expect that 80% was closer to an actual 80% of max capacity, and getting to 100% means you are starting to risk getting a blocked DPF.
Tony Dyson kindly reported his accurate observations of DPF regen and progress, starting at 100% in post #82 of this thread.

Ultimately, I'm just making lots of educated guesses on this, and it's a shame there isn't more published information on how they actually work.

For me, there were three primary purposes of wanting to know when a regen was happening, particularly with an 'older' car:
1. To save money, because I would expect interrupted regens would mean more fuel burnt during more frequent regens and interrupted regens could mean DPF replacement might be required sooner.
2. It gets really hot under the bonnet which I'm sure is not good for stuff under there, so I want to try and get in driving situations where I can move at speed (e.g. slight route change), or at least keep moving (e.g. anticipating junction lights early and slow down slightly to keep rolling at a lower speed, rather than going from 70mph to a standstill, then back up to speed again - motorway exit junctions are often a good example of this).
3. To avoid the risk of dumping diesel into the engine oil sump. I don't know if this is a problem on my car, but historically it has been an engine wrecker. Probably most famously on the Saab diesels of the naughties

Whilst reading up on this stuff i came across a thread whereby a guy had a blocked DPF in an Eclass, it showed 400% full

so my conclusion, agrees with you and that 100% full is a level set with plenty of margin for error, if the correct circumstances for a DPF regen dont occur for a while its not really a problem.

My other thought on this is that the icarsoft scanner just reports levels that the vehicle stores in its control units and so doesn't calculate anything.

When my dpf hit 100% full the regen didnt start immediately but a couple of miles later, the fact it is back to 73% full already was a surprise.


My main driver on this is the wifes Evoque, it was calling for oil changes at 2500 miles whereby the service interval was 21,000 and i am looking for a way to stop the failed regens..

 

[Mr Greedy]

My main driver on this is the wifes Evoque, it was calling for oil changes at 2500 miles whereby the service interval was 21,000 and i am looking for a way to stop the failed regens..

Crumbs. That's not ideal!

Although that might have done me for more than 6 months this past year

 

[David White]

Crumbs. That's not ideal!

Although that might have done me for more than 6 months this past year

Exactly its annoying to say the least

Heres a thought, how the Amazon delivery guys get on ..... lots of miles and stop start all day long, no wonder people have been reporting transits doing the same as our Evoque! its an issue that just shouldn't exist

 

[Jim2]

Exactly its annoying to say the least

Heres a thought, how the Amazon delivery guys get on ..... lots of miles and stop start all day long, no wonder people have been reporting transits doing the same as our Evoque! its an issue that just shouldn't exist

Yes its very strange all right, why they are not showing up with more DPF problems, but what happens I think is that these guys have very big delivery routes, and between population centres, they are literally driven like hell, and a lot of the time, they keep the engine running if its just a single drop. Also, I think that over the years, the DPF's have improved, and can take more punishment then the original ones, from lets say 10 or more years ago. But I do know of a case where friends of mine bought a VW Tiguan for their work, which involved multiple stop starts, without any long drives, and that veh developed serious DPF problems. It eventually ended up in court, after the dealership denied any responsibiliy on the ground that there was no fault in manufactur, and VW likewise agreed, However, his Honour disagreed and awarded full cost's against both the dealership and VW. So happy ending, but that was the last DPF equipped vehicle my friends bought.

 

[Blobcat]

Yes its very strange all right, why they are not showing up with more DPF problems, but what happens I think is that these guys have very big delivery routes, and between population centres, they are literally driven like hell, and a lot of the time, they keep the engine running if its just a single drop. Also, I think that over the years, the DPF's have improved, and can take more punishment then the original ones, from lets say 10 or more years ago. But I do know of a case where friends of mine bought a VW Tiguan for their work, which involved multiple stop starts, without any long drives, and that veh developed serious DPF problems. It eventually ended up in court, after the dealership denied any responsibiliy on the ground that there was no fault in manufactur, and VW likewise agreed, However, his Honour disagreed and awarded full cost's against both the dealership and VW. So happy ending, but that was the last DPF equipped vehicle my friends bought.

@dry run had a VW pickup IIRC with issues due to low mileage. Can’t remember how that ended

 

[Jim2]

@dry run had a VW pickup IIRC with issues due to low mileage. Can’t remember how that ended

The way his Honour expained his ruling was that the vehicle was unfit for the purpose intended. The buyers bought it in good faith and were not expected to be technically aware as to the pros and cons of that parricular model. On the other hand, the dealership were well aware that it was a not a suitable vehicle for frequent stop-start operation, and should have advised the buyer about its short comings.

 

[Blobcat]

The way his Honour expained his ruling was that the vehicle was unfit for the purpose intended. The buyers bought it in good faith and were not expected to be technically aware as to the pros and cons of that parricular model. On the other hand, the dealership were well aware that it was a not a suitable vehicle for frequent stop-start operation, and should have advised the buyer about its short comings.

Here's the thread

 

[Jim2]

Here's the thread

Have they thought about going down the legal route, I wonder??? They seem to have tried everything else.....might be worth spending some cash and getting legal advice... It can be really amazing what a letter on a solicitors headed notepaper can achieve.

 

[Srdl]

Have they thought about going down the legal route, I wonder??? They seem to have tried everything else.....might be worth spending some cash and getting legal advice... It can be really amazing what a letter on a solicitors headed notepaper can achieve.

You need very deep pockets to take on an organisation at big as an international motor manufacturer. They are not frightened by solicitors although it can work well with small businesses or individuals.

Many years ago, my Father-in-Law's car was hit by a toe rag who later tried to avoid paying up. I phoned them up “I'm acting for Mr B....”. They asked if I was a solicitor to which I replied “I'm just acting as a family friend at the moment”. They paid up! And no, I was never a solicitor and didn’t ever say I was.

 

[John Laidlaw]

Not very sophisticated but adequate to at least give you some comfort things are doing what they are supposed to....couple of images from my Bimmerlink diagnostic app/DPF check.....

 

[Jim2]

Not very sophisticated but adequate to at least give you some comfort things are doing what they are supposed to....couple of images from my Bimmerlink diagnostic app/DPF check.....

Nothing wrong with those readouts..very easy to understand. But when it mentions "168'050 Miles end of DPF" what does that mean?

 

[John Laidlaw]

Nothing wrong with those readouts..very easy to understand. But when it mentions "168'050 Miles end of DPF" what does that mean?

Very easy indeed, although I'd like to have seen what % that 21.56g of soot is in comparison to the DPF capacity. It will be more meaningful when I run the diagnostic again after a regen.
My understanding of the very high mileage number is that that is the quoted life of the DPF in current driving condition. Something I doubt I'll have to worry about!

 

[David White]

Not very sophisticated but adequate to at least give you some comfort things are doing what they are supposed to....couple of images from my Bimmerlink diagnostic app/DPF check.....

Thats a handy gadget, i presume it just talks via odb2. Is it vehicle specific or just generic?

Those bluetooth dongles are so cheap now, from around £10.. but I cant find an app like that for Mercedes,

 

[Mr Greedy]

The Apps are vehicle specific. There is an Opel DPF app and VAG DPF app both of which I've used with good success. They are written by random, enterprising individuals and can be downloaded via your mobile app store, but unfortunately nothing available for Merc at the moment.