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Eco mode causing jolts on E220d 2013 model

Discussion in 'Engine, Drivetrain, Fuel and Exhaust' started by Cbrian, Aug 10, 2018.

  1. Cbrian

    Cbrian New Member

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    Your Mercedes:
    E Class 2013 220d
    2013 E Class 220d suddenly started jolting whenever lifting foot off brake when vehicle stationary and in Eco mode (stop / start to save gas).
    Significant jolt occurs when stopped engine restarts. Feels like letting clutch straight out in manual mode with engine at say 800 rpm
    Dealer suggests this is unknown (to MB) problem and suggests software updates be applied to see if it fixes the problem.
    Technician road tested and collected stats confirming problem exists but
    Seems there is no assurance the problem will be resolved as there's no indication that software update was issued for such purpose.
    Car had been previously "B" serviced some 8 weeks prior and no software updates were applied at the time.
    Concerned I may be paying for Eco mode R & D which MB should have zero defects after 5 years!

    Any suggestions as I feel I and my wallet are in uncharted waters!
     
  2. steveq

    steveq Senior Member

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    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Location:
    Dublin
    Your Mercedes:
    2011 Merc S212 E220CDI Estate; 2011 Merc W204 C220 CDI; 1965 W113 Merc 230SL Pagoda
    Hi,
    What is the mileage on your car?
    Has it ever had the ATF changed?
    The 7g+ gearbox is due an oil and filter change at 5 years or 70,000 miles. Your 2013 car is due on age grounds anyway.
    Make sure that the torque converter is drained when it is done.
    Not saying that will fix your issue but it is good to eliminate it as a cause.

    There is an electric pump which keeps the oil pressure up when the engine is stopped with Stop/Start (I think). That could be faulty.
    I assume that would show up on Star though.
    Has the car been checked on Star?
     
  3. OP
    Cbrian

    Cbrian New Member

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    Your Mercedes:
    E Class 2013 220d
    Hi,
    Thanks for your thoughts and useful suggestions- much appreciated.
    Its got 48000, was serviced by MB when the ATF was drained, and filter replaced about 2 months ago.
    Star checl shows vehicle is 100% ok!
    Technicians have made several road tests and experienced the problem....

    The electric pump seems to function ok. That has just been replaced in case it was an issue, but the problem persists, as of today Aug 11th!

    Car remains in "intensive care" while next steps are considered.

    Will continue to post updates until resolved.

    Currently would have to save over 800 litres of gas to achieve a breakeven, given estimate of costs to date!
    Thanks, Brian
     
  4. steveq

    steveq Senior Member

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    Location:
    Dublin
    Your Mercedes:
    2011 Merc S212 E220CDI Estate; 2011 Merc W204 C220 CDI; 1965 W113 Merc 230SL Pagoda
    Did the problem start after the ATF was changed?

    The ATF on the 7g+ is a different spec to the 7g.
    Is the dealer who is looking at the issue a MB main dealer?
    Was the job done correctly?

    I changed the ATF and filter in my E220 recently and noticed that the sump bolts didn't seem to be tightened correctly and the old fluid was a red/brown colour not blue/green from the previous change which was done by a MB main dealer.
    That said, there were no issues with the box.
     
  5. OP
    Cbrian

    Cbrian New Member

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    Your Mercedes:
    E Class 2013 220d
    Steve,
    Thanks for these additional comments.
    As of this morning, MB are going to contact Stuttgart since no progress has been achieved. They've reached the end of the road of things on a trial/logic/technical info basis.
    This problem seems unique to me, at this time.

    I'll see what transpires today and post follow-up of anything that would be useful amongst us.
     
  6. Mr Filipov

    Mr Filipov Senior Member

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    Location:
    Huntingdon
    Your Mercedes:
    2014 BMW 530d Gran Turismo
    The problem probably is not unique to you, it is just a matter of finding someone else that has experienced this.

    The bigger problem is main dealers. In the big picture there are no proper mechanics anymore. It is a bunch of monkeys for the most part with access to a good selection of tools and step by step guide on changing parts.

    Now that is all well and good to an extent. Almost nobody in a given dealership has a clue how an engine works these days. They plug in a computer and wait for that to tell them if there is a problem and where there the problem is.

    Casing point for this is when I had a duff stat on my E350 with the coveted Approved Used Warranty. Took them 6 months of me chasing them and telling them what to look for and how to diagnose it before it was eventually done. In the end they just changed the part. Their head mechanic test drove my car and diagnosed the stat faulty. Didn’t know you can diagnose it within .2 of a mile that was covered.

    I had a vibration from the rack and harsh gear changes between 4th and 3rd. No codes for either, so nothing diagnosed. Gave up and traded in the car, next owner can worry about that.
     
  7. OP
    Cbrian

    Cbrian New Member

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    Your Mercedes:
    E Class 2013 220d
    Thanks to Mr Filipov for his observations. Design is now so complicated, diagnostic tools have become mandatory, but knowledge/common sense remain key!

    Steve, my Auxiliary battery and due to high resistance, so lower volts at higher load, the main battery, which seems to start the car perfectly when its not in Eco Mode, is advised to be replaced.

    MB are saying they can't assure me I wont have the problem again until I replace the main battery too, and the service advisor is suggesting should the error/fault re-occur, it will need a full diagnostics!
    I'm cornered as I do expect more than a 3 month warranty on the battery which is the contractual statement on their invoices!!

    The Eco Mode is very complex setup with more than 10 conditions that may inhibit it operating, eg anything from excessive A/c need caused by large difference in ambient-to-cabin temperature setting, reducing potentially fogging in wet conditions, maintaining optimum operating efficiency, excessive load drawn on the battery, eg in winter with heated seats, heated screens, windscreen wipers under load during heavy snow, headlights on, displays and radio, etc, when the main battery can become drained. It seems to know the few drops of diesel saved are more than offset by the lost energy to be replenished by re-starting the engine, the A/c has to go into a low energy mode and soon the car restarts itself in any case!

    Perhaps the designers see we really value our creature comforts so these v emission control laws v (minimally) fuel saving are conflicting conditions.
    All this adds significantly to the diagnostic complexity which Mr Filipov refers to.

    No doubt the auto industry sees stop/start feature as reducing emissions particularly in high frequency stop/start urban area situations.
    Secondly, Fuel saving benefits (mainly) the huge number of E-class taxi drivers eg most all German cities, in saving fuel. (Fuel used on idle - say .25 gal/hr. That's what I save for as long engine is stopped in Eco Mode)

    I also now wonder what this does to crankshaft bearing life, since at rest, there is very limited lubrication between bearing shell and crankshaft surfaces, so wear increased.
    Given this and the few drops of diesel I save (in my annual 6000 miles and rarely in rush hour traffic delaying time), I think to always disable the EcoMode whenever I start the car!!! The feature to fully disable EcoMode has been disabled!
     
  8. phillh

    phillh New Member

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    Jul 3, 2018
    Your Mercedes:
    2013 E220 Estate AMG Sport
    I have had my 2013 E220 CDi Estate for 6 weeks and am starting to get to know it better now. The first few times I used the stop/start, I applied throttle straight away and it did lurch forward. Since then I have tried waiting a short time to give the engine a chance to fire up before accelerating and this has solved it.

    I am not convinced stop/start is particularly good for the car (starter motor/battery/alternator life etc) so only select it when stopped for a longer period.
     
  9. John Laidlaw

    John Laidlaw Senior Member

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    Location:
    Wirral
    Your Mercedes:
    W212 E63 ///AMG V8 Biturbo Volvo XC90 2018
    It’s certainly not good for the timing chain
     
  10. steveq

    steveq Senior Member

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    Your Mercedes:
    2011 Merc S212 E220CDI Estate; 2011 Merc W204 C220 CDI; 1965 W113 Merc 230SL Pagoda
    The whole car is complex (as they all are). The stop/start adds to that as do the other emission reduction systems -- that is the price to pay for trying to reduce the environmental harm.

    In terms of turning off the stop/start -- both my E Class and C Class have it. The E Class is an auto and the stop / start can only really be controlled by the button on the dash. It is difficult to control the stop/start function in normal driving -- the engine stops whenever the car is stopped and often just for the briefest time as the traffic moves off again.
    The C Class is a manual -- the driver can easily control stop/start. Keep your foot on the clutch means that the stop/start doesn't operate. Put the car in neutral and lifting your foot off the clutch allows stop/start to operate.
    So, in real world use, if I see that the traffic is about to move off as I arrive at a queue at traffic lights or whatever, I keep my foot on the clutch so no stop/start. If it looks like it is going to be a longer hold-up I put the car into neutral and lift my foot off the clutch (as you might do on a non-stop/start car anyway) and the engine stops. Press down the clutch starts the engine when the traffic moves off.

    Back to your issue -- it will be surprising if simply changing the batteries will cure it. You have to do it as they will wash their hands of the issue if you don't.
    Very interested to hear if it does solve the problem though.
     
  11. OP
    Cbrian

    Cbrian New Member

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    Your Mercedes:
    E Class 2013 220d
    It appears the internal battery resistance has grown excessively high and runs extremely hot. This results in it being unable provide enough current to service the demand.
    The main battery, still the original, is also showing only holding 30% regardless of driving duration, so somehow the intricate Eco mode controls are resulting in incorrect combination of signals/actions when you lift your foot off the brake pedal.
    I confirm MB will "wash their hands of it" unless I have both batteries replaced. I'd guess they spent 1000+GBP in equivalent charge time to get to this resolution. This suggests
    a. Complexity to determine problem root cause and resolution
    b. The diagnostics tool confirmed all to be ok and my outcome is due to the experienced technician noticing the battery being excessively hot.
    Replacement has rectified the issue as far as I've experienced.
    WATCH OUT For.. - the main dealer warrants battery performance for an extended period than the 3 months on their contractual terms printed on the reverse of the invoice!

    Lesson learned (fact, not a political one!...……….)
    Whenever I start the car, always turn off Eco.
    Since, I think, 2013, MB have removed our ability to fully disable it - I guess as part of meeting EU emissions controls.
    Claimed fuel saving is a mirage for most of us....
    I'm not a taxi driver and the 3 drops of diesel saved when this happens, usually at traffic lights, wont save the planet, nor will I recover the costs.
    Also figured out the 240,000 stop/start battery life claim is vapourware as that amounts to 130/day for 5 years!
    I so rarely drive in cities, so unless its a major motorway accident, I don't experience any extended delays. Even should that happen, I'd be inclined just to switch off in any case!
     
  12. mrmb

    mrmb Senior Member

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    Location:
    Galway
    Your Mercedes:
    W204 C200 CDI Sport Edition 125 2011 / W215 CL600 Bi-Turbo M275 2002
    You can turn off Auto Start/Stop function using Vediamo ;-) In my facelited 204 model I have change the function so it will remember the last state of the Start/Stop so if I will switch the Start/Stop system using button, it will stay off when next time I will start the car and it will be on if I will press the button again.
     
  13. steveq

    steveq Senior Member

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    Your Mercedes:
    2011 Merc S212 E220CDI Estate; 2011 Merc W204 C220 CDI; 1965 W113 Merc 230SL Pagoda
    Wow -- that's great news for you.
    I had thought it sounded like you were going to have to head down an expensive replace the gearbox / TC / TCU or similar path.

    It is very good information to have for anyone else who experiences a similar issue.

    I have never checked the temperature of either battery in any car -- I must do it now after a run.
     
  14. OP
    Cbrian

    Cbrian New Member

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    E Class 2013 220d
    Hi MrMB.,
    Thank you very much for that tip.

    I will mention it and invite the dealer to do that for me.
    It was my understanding the disabling option had been removed since 2013.

    As a result, I suspect some kind of disclaimer comment may be forthcoming!
     
  15. steveq

    steveq Senior Member

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    Dublin
    Your Mercedes:
    2011 Merc S212 E220CDI Estate; 2011 Merc W204 C220 CDI; 1965 W113 Merc 230SL Pagoda
    Just a quick update -- I am just back (well about 30 minutes ago) from driving about 20 miles in a mixture of city and suburban roads. The car was stop/starting at lights, etc.
    I went out to check temperature of the small stop/start battery in the boot on my C Class. It was completely cold. I do realise that it would have cooled down in the 30 minutes but I would have thought it would still be even slightly warm to the touch if it had been hot while driving.

    It would be interesting to hear if your replacement battery gets hot -- I assume you would have to activate stop/start though.
     
  16. OP
    Cbrian

    Cbrian New Member

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    E Class 2013 220d
    Hi again Steve,
    I Google'd stop/start battery and found a plethora of data. its on my PC.

    I'll copy the links here when I get a moment.

    Cautionary note - I didn't it was taking longer for the Eco Mode status to change from Yellow to Green - a potential warning sign of the battery status, though I'd never link it to the Eco Mode status.

    Thanks for your interest.

    Brian
     

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