German View of MB quality

[littlebrooklyn]

I'd love to see a survey. I suspect BM's = 'Creatives' and MB's='engineers'.

Well my partner is most definately an 'engineer', I think I would be classed as more 'creative' though, so we kinda cancel each out there

 

[television]

The sales figures were car's world wide. I cannot recall BMW ever having major problems with quality control, small problem with rust on E46 rear sub frame 1999. Later today I will look on the BMW forums and see what problems come up. If you take the MB relay boxes etc, they are often multi function, cheaper to build the car,dearer for the end user. fitting a Sat nav to my brothers BM was no joke, very well built though. MB own survey back in 2002-3 I think, showed that 97 percent of faults were the customer's did not know how to operate the electrics, no mention of the fact that half the time they did not work.

Malcolm

 

[R129]

May have something to do with money. My 1989 500sl was approximately £70k when new. Just so happens the current model is this sort of money new.
As for dealers my bills from 1990 show a £25 per hour labour charge while the parts prices are almost exactly the same as today.

Labour charges are around the £100 per hour mark now, perhaps therefore the price of the new sl500 should be around the £280k mark?

Gross over simplification but in real terms we do seem to be getting much cheaper cars these days.

And on another point I have put 7000 miles on my 4 month old BMW M3 without so much as a creak. If only AMG built a 350BHP 3.2 normally aspirated six that revs to 8k with a manual box.

Bring back the 190 Cosworth I say.

 

[chinny]

Bought a 2005 C-class for my wife 3 month almost 3 months ago now and just yesterday picked up up a new Lexus IS250.
With regards to quality, I have to say the Lexus is immaculate, their attention to details are pretty impressive. within 3 months our C-class rear door is already a bit sticky - ie wouldn't close in one smooth motion. While the door on the Lexus is - well, almost a work of art.
HOWEVER, I miss driving the C-class, the steering it more precise and honestly I feel more confident at speed. Lexus somehow pampered me a bit too much that it is not very engaging to drive. I can drive the MB much harder.
So why did I change? Well, some of you might remember my post earlier re picking the wrong colour for the car. We got used to it but we still don;t love it, but after 1 day we do miss driving our C-class.
Just a little voice in the back of our mind at the moment, what have we done! Again!
So even though the survey doesn't rate MB that well, I think most of us understands and like the way our MB handles.

 

[littlebrooklyn]

Oh yes I remember you being worried about the Perlite Grey colour that you had bought. I have to say, having once owned a dark metallic grey Peugeot, grey is not a colour I am particularly fond of either and unless I was given one foc I don't think it's a colour I would buy again.

I'm sure you will get used to the Lexus, I think they are very nice cars and would really consider buying one, but my other half won't hear of it. I don't think that the interior of the Lexus is a patch on the Mercedes though, they look pretty much like the inside of any other car to me.

 

[chinny]

Someone still remember the guy that got her wife the wrong colour! Littlebrooklyn, re interior of the IS, you have to go and sit in it, pics doesn't do it any justice. Sit and touch the leather, feel the roofliner, paly with the buttons, even smell it. It is quite an experience.
When I dragged my wife to the launch it was just because we were invited, but after 10 minutes, we were totally sold. The money lost on the almost brand new C-class is a bummer of course, but I do like the new Lexus. Only dislike is that it is not as engaging to drive.
I do miss driving the C-class but my point really tfor this thread is that MB do make good cars though the current generation have had issue with quality. My family has always had MBs and i know what it feels like riding in them but for a young couple like us and the profession that we are in, it is a bit hard to drive a "badged" car like an MB. The Lexus suits us better, a more understated luxury.
Hope the next generation C-class will address the current issues. By then I might be ready to trade in the Lexus again. Service frm both dealers has been exceptional, should have no problem for them to get me into their next car. Whichever come first.

 

[DAD190E1990]

This is quite sad when you think about it. MB holds one of the most prestigious names on the block and it's losing it, just like Harley Davidson did in the late 70's, early 80's. AMF took over the original company and wrecked it by not looking at build quality or customer satisfaction. The only reason it is what it is today is down to individuals buying the company back and turning it around based on thier passion for the bikes. These days it is a major name in the motorcycle market again, because the people in charge of it CARE.
Mercedes Benz holds one of those 'Few' names that instantly has the image in peoples minds. My son and all his friends call it a 'Benz' and apparently, if it's 'Fly', it's a good one. Ahem !
Anyway, i am sad here because when my Dad bought the car i now drive, brand new in '89 it really was something to own. Not everyone had one and those who did enjoyed a very superior car, the build quality being the biggest selling point of the cars. Now they rust after a few years !!!! I'm sorry, say that again? Rust, on a Mercedes? what have you smoked? Is this the dimension i know and somehow love?
I can see how the cars and technology changes of course and i know my 1989 dinosaur is nothing like the modern models but i know my car is in better shape than most 4 year old Merc's, despite thier fancy electronic gadgets. What use is Technology if it keeps failing and then the dealers can't / won't fix it? Why couldn't this have happened to a boring marque like vauxhaul or ****** renault? It is a travesty to see this name, this Icon of Quality and Craftsmanship, go spiralling down the pan of the modern business world's toilet. Mercedes ought to be very worried indeed. It may not bite them yet, but sometime in our not too distant future, i can see MB coming very unstuck and once you become a joke, it's almost impossible to regain any status. Look at some others, Ford will always be 'Found-On-Roadside-Dumped' or 'Fix-Or-Repair-Daily', Vauxhaul will always be boring and no matter how hard they work at it, a Skoda will always be a joke.
Up until these last few years, a Mercedes meant to me, that you made it into a proper decent car. I hope to heaven they realise soon and don't become Germany's good thing gone bad.
As they are i think the cars and designs are all great, very great in a lot of cases and i think they still hold all the charm they ever did but owning them needs to be made 100% better. My point is that MB are doing it wrong, not that the cars are wrong or badly designed. The cars are badly built and badly serviced / managed by dealers, along with customer service badly run. Thankfully they have not lost the status yet but in terms of years, it will not be that long until MB feel the effects of this in the showrooms and in the media.

 

[The Editor]

Couldn't agree more..

And the problem?...

Bean Counters (Accountants)


The Ed

 

[shirubaby]

I agree,

I bought a w126 500se for £255 and the old girl still pulls like she were a 5 year car. I cant believe it! I never had this much confidence in any of my previous bangers. The car WILL get me home, no matter what.
I wish I had the money to do her up to showroom condition. I'd rather do that than buy a new merc.

Shiru

 

[littlebrooklyn]

Someone still remember the guy that got her wife the wrong colour! Littlebrooklyn, re interior of the IS, you have to go and sit in it, pics doesn't do it any justice. Sit and touch the leather, feel the roofliner, paly with the buttons, even smell it. It is quite an experience.

Well I have actually sat inside a Lexus. Some friends bought a brand new IS back in 2000. We had just got our brand new Peugeot 206 Roland Garros and being a top of the range Peugeot we were pretty thrilled with all the gadgets in it. However once we sat in our friends Lexus we did notice how much better theirs was inside.

Having said that, it was only after we got our Mercedes and then sat inside our friends Lexus again that we both realised how much nicer the interior of the Mercedes was. Perhaps it's the lack of any wood trim that seems to take the edge off the Lexus interior, it just seemed to be missing something. I just love how the Mercedes lights up like a spaceship at night when you unlock it, it still never fails to impress me.

My only concern with keeping the Mercedes I guess is due to all the bad stuff I read about them in here. It does worry me that they aren't built as good now as they used to be and I do see how highly the Lexus is always rated.

 

[jberks]

The funny thing about the quality issues is that unlike other makes, it doesn't seem to be particularly age / mileage related. The things that give problems are the electronics and as with most electronic items, pack in randomly, not specifically because its a few years old or done a few miles. OK, the f.....d up with paint/metal between 98 and 02 and I was one of the many with a rusty E class, but the engine, gearbox etc were as sweet and slick after 6 years as they were when I picked her up from the showroom
.
My current E hasn't missed a beat in the 5,000 miles I've had her. Everything works perfectly and I suspect it will still be just as good after another 100k or so. Rust wise, bonnet/boot are aluminum and several areas are plastic so no problem there, the rest (hopefully) will be fine too. OK, it doesn't have quite the concrete feel of a W123, but then it doesn't do 20mpg and 0-60 in 12 secs either.

I still remember my Dad's 1980 W123 250. It was quite rusty. The engine rattled, clouds of black smoke came out the back when you hoofed it, it misfired when pushed or cold and the rear axle whined. It let him down completely twice. This was after him babying it from new and having done 150k or so motorway miles in 6 years. What I am saying is that we do tend to look through rose coloured specs and the ones running around today that we quote as the benchmark, were the good ones that did last. The rest, like ours, died many years ago.

The MB image is from the days of the Morris Marina, Vauxhall Cavalier and Mk2 escort. Remember? Vinyl trim, bean tin metal,no soundproofing and 1970's build quality. The problem is that the competition have improved so dramatically its harder to find the difference. The test I use is, get in shut the door, put the seat belt on and just listen. Most cars creak as you do this, there is a rattly echo as the seat belt clips in and you can still hear the outside world. Even now, the merc is just silent, damped and serene. Also, drive a 150k mile 7 year old W210 and then take out a similar age/mileage Ford. The difference may not show as clearly when new, but give it a few miles ....

Still doesn't excuse the dealers!

 

[chinny]

I'll get booted off this forum for saying this - but try the latest IS250, the old 200 was a boy racer car but the new 250 is very, very refined. I don't miss the C-class aesthetically but like i said before and i will say it again and again, i miss driving the C-class.
Everytime i get into my wife's new 250, i do get a real flutter in my heart but when i drives it, it doesn;t excite me like the C does. Here's a new Lexus drivers taht still envy the MB drivers out there, especially those of you lucky enough to have a CLS.
Littlebrooklyn, drop by your local Lexus dealership and have a go in the new 250. Experience the other side. I think I will definitely be booted off now!

 

[Baby Benz]

Morning everyone

Very new here and this is my first posting, I've been around for a few months soaking up all your collective wisdom, and finally concluded a 12 year old car can still be an quality and reliable motor.

But this tread really seems to confirms something that gets me steamed up -
Dad190E1990's comparision with the HD of the 1980 is spot on for me.

Harley lost it's way big time, but the bigest mistake was that it appeared to take its customers, the average harley rider for granted, " those folks will always buy a harley" so we don't need to spend too much time with them?

Harley Davison riders are, in general, fanatical about the brand, they may falll out of love occasional but generally they will come back when HD deliver the goods. The point is HD management stopped listening to, or worse ,ignored their core customers.

It seems that MB are making the same short term decisions.

For me, as someone very new to the marque, MB is a very distinctive marque . . . its a drivers car . . . build quality . . . history . . . longevity.

Something must be seriously wrong when the 12 year old car I've just bought is as good or in some cases better than one thats just come out of the showroom.

The Editor says it the accountants fault, but if you look at who's buying cars in the UK, the domestic customer is less than 40% now.

MB want to sell more cars, so who's the typical owner? The biggest buyer, yep, the fleet car. How long do staff usually have a company car? If most of the time it looks good and has a high cabin spec. thats great. If it does go wrong then I just get a replacement from the transport manager.

Maybe the answer to the poorer build quality than earlier times is that the wants of the Transport Manager are different from 40% of owners who part with their own cash.

From one point of view a car that has all the image that comes with the MB marque, yet has a price thats "average"; is a good buy. Even if that means after 3 or 5 years the cars less reliable. Anyway, where do these fleet cars end up, in the private market.

Maybe these are rather dark cynical thoughts ( especially for a first posting) sorry, but hey I still love my MB with a passion. (staring longingly out the window)

The reality though is that a company like MB can't continue keep taking these sort of criticism's without responding, the're just too damaging to a brand, who , most people still see as a car of reliability and quality.

In the short and medium term the answer has got to be that the 40% of drivers who buy the cars need be more demanding,more "GERMAN" even and not resigned to the current situation as inevitable. Coming out bottom of the table in the home market, may turn out to be a good thing in the long run, if it stirs things up in the boardroom.

Arh, I feel better now, thanks all for listening. . . now wheres my car keys?

 

[maddog]

I'm sorry but i've driven the older MB models and whilst they are very good compared to models of their era they arent anywhere near the modern cars, sure they might have better build quality than the newer stuff but they are thirsty old leviathans and times have moved on.

Someone said Skoda was a joke but first off i would rather drive a new skoda than a 12 yr old MB and secondly if you look at any of the reports in recent years you will see that Skoda perform far better than MB or almost any of the other european manufacturers....some joke

Fact is as B Benz said very few cars are bought new by private owners nowadays its far less than 40% ime , nearer 25-30% so subsequently thats the market MB cater for, there is far less money in the secondhand market i bet they farm that part of the business out in the next few years.

People do envy the badge and thats one of the reasons MB still sell like they do, MB still make good cars but they are less reliable than they used to be and the dealers are crap but if you are a fleet buyer that really wont matter to you.

If MB carry on the way they are going all that will happen is that they will sell less private cars but make more money from the fleet business, something which i think they are well aware of.

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

The interesting debate for me is in comparing the old company, Mercedes-Benz, to the new Daimler-Chrysler. In order to survive and thrive in the global car market MB decided it had to merge with another manufacturer and that turned out to be Chrysler (read access to American market and all that). They might have done better with Ford, but Ford wouldn't want to play second fiddle to the Germans.

Unfortunately Chrysler didn't have much to offer the combined group (read good offering of mass market, lower priced cars) so the merged company had to embark on a massive investmernt in new models to cover small and medium sized vehicles.

Something therefore had to give and the first thing to suffer is usually quality. Add to that, the fact that the Germans have a history of pushing forward technological boundaries and we arrive at the point we are at today.

The dealers I think struggle to keep up with the MB technology and therefore embark on a policy of problem solving by modular replacement of parts which further damages their already poor reputations.

There is no doubt in my mind that a Mercedes is still special, but if you happen to be unlucky, and buy a lemon, you will no doubt regret buying into the brand, especially if you have not experienced the upside of ownership.

There have been some interesting points made about manufacturers and fleet buyers. My feelings on this are, it wasn't until companies decided to buy their employees cars for business use that quality control in the car manufacturing process moved ahead in leaps and bounds. A fleet buyer and manager is extremely interested in cost per mile, in servicing and reliability. Think back to the old Fords, Vauxhalls and BL cars of the 60s and 70s to see how far we have come.

I'm sure that MB will improve in the reliability stakes but not until the new company stabilises with its model range. I would anticipate this will take a few years yet.