Living with steering vagueness

[philharve]

Hi All

I decided I would start this thread after reviewing the advantages and disadvantages of the recirculating ball steering system, particularly the disadvantages, which figure in the design of many makes of large vehicle and has, until very recently, been the preferred method of steering Mercedes passenger cars. Unfortunately the recirculating ball steering system, once renown for its compliant and quality feel, has not kept pace with the power and performance of the modern motor car.

Recirculating ball steering systems are notorious for their straight ahead directional instability which manifests as a tendency for the car to wander at speed and requires the driver to make frequent steering corrections, first turning one way, then the other, in a manner reminiscent of an F1 driver. This lack of steering precision makes it particularly difficult to place the car on narrow roads and the problem generally worsens as road speed increases. The frequency of corrections can induce a feeling of a lack of control in the mind of the driver. To the inexperienced or unwary this feeling can induce fear that can have serious consequences.

In order to overcome this wayward behaviour, Mercedes is gradually replacing recirculating ball with rack and pinion steering in its latest models. This system is more modern and provides a more direct method of car control with none of the wayward behaviour of its predecessor. Different steering and revised suspension geometry is also being introduced by MB to complement rack and pinion.

However, most MB owners today have to live with the idiosyncracies of recirculating ball steering. Whilst much can be done to minimize steering vagueness, including converting to rack and pinion, the effects can never be totally eliminated. As the car ages, wear in the steering mechanism increases and the problem worsens. Increasing the preload on the ball bearings reduces tolerances and takes out slop/lash in the steering gear an improves the directional stability. However a degree vagueness is usually always present.

Now to the point of this thread. Many members will be on their umpteenth Mercedes car and they may have devised methods to live with the steering problem. For example, they may have discovered a driving technique or style that successfully copes with steering vagueness? If vagueness cannot be eliminated, can it be turned to an advantage? Is it possible to drive quickly in safety with vagueness ever present? This thread is addressed to those members who have learned to live with this eccentricity.

What tips can experienced MB owners impart to new owners to help them live with steering vagueness?

REGARDS Phil

 

[Myros]

light-heartedly

I only drive roads as vague as the steering.

Actually, I do press on a bit , espec on the German autobahns, and just use the relaxed, two-handed grip at 2:45, or 14:45 in the afternoon. It gives me a good response time without having to jerk the wheel, and tends to smooth out the fluctuations.
I suppose an eye-in-the-sky would show us all gently wandering from side to side as we waft along.

I find it much worse in a side-wind though, and it becomes a much more active task keeping the car planted where I want to go.

 

[clive williams]

Hi All

.........................
What tips can experienced MB owners impart to new owners to help them live with steering vagueness?

REGARDS Phil

I must admit that generally I'm not aware of the vagueness you comment on. Having graduated from commercial and farm vehicles when I was a kid, through sports cars, competition cars and now large family saloons, I don't find the 'vagueness' a problem. Over the years, I have always adopted the approach of letting the car find its own way by keeping a light touch on the steering and not trying to correct every nuance of twitch or wander.
All cars are set up with an amount of castor specifically to make it steer in a straight line and therefore they only need gentle input to move back on line.

The (recirculating ball) steering on my 500E (c225k mls old) does not feel vague and I can hustle it at indecent speeds along the lanes.

Clive

500E
E320CDIT210

 

[Blobcat]

In the 70's the Americans with their arrow straight highways became worried about what would happen if a driver were to sneeze at speed. They thought that with direct steering the driver would swerve off the road and crash. They then made their cars to have very vague steering when going straight ahead. Their reasoning was that during the sneeze you could pull on the wheel and you direction of travel would not alter much. Makes me think what they were smoking when they thought this up. The Rover P6 became saddled with this American steering, making you constantly adjust the wheel to maintain a straight line.
My 'E' has the parameter steering with variable power assistance, I have driven at 145mph in Germany and not noted that the steering was vague. I drove a friends 'E' with the normal steering and on Dunlops and his did feel vague at speed. However with practice you could keep it on the straight and narrow you just had to keep control over it. Perhaps that again is some of the rational behind it. If you have to keep correcting then you need to keep focused.

 

[kth286]

philharve

You are completely wrong - Mercs are renowned for their relaxed straightline high speed capability compared to lots of cars where you DO have to make corrections to steering.

The Merc is good because of the excellent REAR multilink suspension setup, which keeps the REAR camber and toe constant irrespective of road irregularities.
Compared to most cars, where the rear camber and toe would constantly alter depending on road surface because of the simplistic REAR suspension design, you would have to keep correcting steering.

Hence Mercs reputation for relaxed continental journeys.

If you have a steering problem, it is likely as anything else, to be the important THRUST and TORQUE links in the REAR suspension, where the bushes have worn out.

They are cheap and easy to replace, and boy do they make a difference.

Hope this is useful.

Regards

 

[asahartz]

I'm also surprised at the vagueness assertion. I drive lots of cars, and I've just bought my second Merc (another 124 estate). I didn't notice any vagueness in the steering of the last one, and since then I've had a Saab, a Rover, a Vauxhall and driven my wife's Previa as well as my old Minis. Of those, only the Vauxhall might be described as having any steering vagueness, and that's down to wear in its 1/4-million-mile suspension.

My second-ever car (the first one I didn't write off!) - a Toyota - had recirculating ball steering. I don't recall that being vague either, though some of the 4x4s I had later were definitely from the "point & shoot with fingers crossed" school of steering!

The only thing I do find about recirculating ball steering systems is the lightness - some might construe that as vague I suppose, but having a dodgy wrist as I have nowadays I find it most helpful that I don't have to haul the steering round. OTOH I still drive my Mini too!

 

[Parrot of Doom]

I find the steering on my Merc very vague indeed. I put it down to high mileage (will possibly need new shocks and bushes in the next year or two) and the fact that the car is basically just a big heavy barge. Its possibly also to do with driving a lightweight 2-seater sports car before this

 

[Bolide]

Vagueness

I, too, have to disagree with the recirculating ball steering being vague. It gives a great compromise between too much feedback and too little and, in my experience, doesn't lack anything in accuracy

Jumping from my Triumph TR4 with a tiny steering wheel and a solid-mounted quick rack into my 250TD did need some mental adjustment, yes, and the steering was much slower but the 250TD was as easy to place as the TR was

I suspect much "steering vagueness" is caused by worn steering boxes, worn idlers (I'm told that replacing this gives a real benefit), worn front balljoints, worn ARB bushes and worn rear suspension links. I'd agree with kth286 that sorting the rear suspension makes a big difference to directional stability

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[Silver Arrow]

My 124 Coupe is nice and precise.
The 123 which I had previously had, what was termed at the time, 'compliance'. ie Vauge!
Around 1990, the local Volvo agent had an SL which I quite fancied, but it drove exactly like the 123. They had had the steering to bits and rebuilt the suspension. I decided to keep the 123.

 

[Dunx]

I find the steering on my Merc very vague indeed. I put it down to high mileage (will possibly need new shocks and bushes in the next year or two) and the fact that the car is basically just a big heavy barge. Its possibly also to do with driving a lightweight 2-seater sports car before this

When I first got my E300TD I wasn't too impressed with the steering. I thought it fairly vague, with a tendancy to wander for no apparent reason. After replacing the bottom ball joints and anti-roll bar drop links the improvement was vast. Steering now very precise and no knocking when traveling over uneven road surfaces.

To be fair, I think my car has rack and pinion steering gear, but ball joints could well be the reason for vagueness.

 

[C220GJS]

Dunx,
Your car definitely does have rack and pinion steering.
Geo.

 

[big x]

If you want a direct comparison of recirculating ball and rack and pinion steering feel try to get a drive of a BMW 540i E39 96-02 which has recirulating with one of the six cylinder E39's of the same year which have rack and pinion steering.
The rack steering is more direct with more feel however the difference is small.On high mileage cars recirulating ball is better at masking suspension wear and is ajustable whereas many rack and pinion setups are not.
In my view recirculating ball systems seem to be built heavier and last longer.
For many years BMW used racks for the lighter cars and recirculating for the heavy stuff.

adam

 

[philharve]

Hi All

My thanks for the many excellent replies. They clearly demonstrate a difference of opinion arising from different driving experiences over many years.

On the one hand those members who experience steering vagueness seem to overcome it by keeping a light touch on the steering wheel and making only gentle steering corrections. I would imagine tugging at the steering wheel only serves to increase the sense of lack of control if vagueness is present?

On the other hand, several members report no steering vagueness at all. All agree that if it is present, it is likely to be due to misaligned/worn steering geometry, defective suspension and/or steering components, make of tyre or incorrect inflation. It is believed that repair/realignment should eliminate the problem.

I have only ever driven two Mercedes cars, my present car, a Millenium (2000) C230K, and a nearly new (2005) C180 hire car with only delivery miles on the clock. At any speed up to 80/85 mph neither car exhibited discerable steering vagueness. However, as the speed increased, it became increasingly hard work to prevent either car from wandering. Constant alertness and frequent steering corrections don't make for relaxed driving.

My previous car was a sports car with rack and pinion steering. Whilst my current Merc' and the Toyota sports car are very similar in terms of their performance and handling, only the Toyota felt secure at autobahn speeds and this was a much older car, both technologically and in miles covered.

If recirculating ball steering offers similar or better directional control to rack and pinion, why, therefore, is Mercedes gradually migrating to rack and pinion in its newer models? The answer most frequenly quoted is that rack and pinion is more direct.

I believe several members have touched upon the solution concerning living with steering vagueness. If it is present and it cannot be eliminated, the only solution is to adapt ones driving style to counteract its adverse effects. This may take some practice, especially if one has spent several decades behind the wheel of a different type of car. It's difficult to unlearn one skill and develop another. I still tend to tug on the steering wheel when the Merc' starts to wander.

I have had my car thooughly checked over by my indie and there are no known problems with it. The indie reports the vagueness, though slight, is a Mercedes trait designed into the car to provide drivers with a quality feel over all kinds of road surfaces. By comparison, rack and pinion, being more direct, provides less isolation over poor road surfaces. It is all a matter of compromise.

REGARDS Phil

 

[TimN]

I simply rebuilt my steering box with original MB components. It is now as good as new and the cost was the same as a reconditioned on from Eurocar parts. I fitted a reconditioned one from ECP on a car I previously owned but it was as sloppy as the one I had taken off.

Replacing the steering dampner goes along way to stabilising the steering. After driving on motorways on windy days pased lorry or going over reverse cambers and having to catch the drift of the steering I decided enough was enough.

If anybody is interested in the process of refurbishing your steering boxes I would be happy to email you the notes and photos I took documenting the process.

One reason that some of you might be happy with your steering and others not is that MB fitted some vehicles with a box that automatically compensates for the wear that occurs to the pitman shaft and piston that others have to manually adjust out with the confounded exhoust manifold obstructing the process.

 

[COUPE FREAK]

my 220ce 1993 wanders quite a bit, 64,000 on the clock, so i dont think it's ware & tear on the components, more likely age perished rubber bushes etc, it's not really a relaxing car to drive having to correct it all the time, as mentioned crosswinds, overtaking wagons, road camber, etc. fitted a new steering damper but cant really notice much difference, going to re-new all the suspension bushes etc, new dampers, adjust steering box and anything else i can think of to tighten up the handling,,

 

[philharve]

my 220ce 1993 wanders quite a bit, 64,000 on the clock, so i dont think it's ware & tear on the components, more likely age perished rubber bushes etc, it's not really a relaxing car to drive having to correct it all the time, as mentioned crosswinds, overtaking wagons, road camber, etc. fitted a new steering damper but cant really notice much difference, going to re-new all the suspension bushes etc, new dampers, adjust steering box and anything else i can think of to tighten up the handling,,

Hi COUPE FREAK

At what speeds does the 220CE start to wander? I find my C230K very relaxing at all legal roads speeds and a little beyond. Push it towards 3 figures and it appears to want to dance, as if the car becomes very light.

My Celica had a curious trait too. If taken to around 100mph it would become ultra smooth as it the suspension and steering had been tuned for this speed band. I have been wandering whether if I push the Merc' beyond 100mph its handling would improve too. Of course, my interest in finding out is purely academic because no one breaks the UK speed limit, do they?

REGARDS Phil

 

[COUPE FREAK]

my old volvo 244 used to sing at about 90mph,, you could just feel everything was working right,,

my 220 feels vague at any speed,, maybe i've got used to driving my little ford ka, which was like a go-cart,, very chuckable and precise steering,, all the cars i've owned, porsche,, peugeot 3ltr coupe,, gte, gti,, etc have been fine on the steering side,, only my old 316 bmw coupe used to be a bit vague steering, even after i re-placed all the front suspension,,another bad design set-up,,

 

[asahartz]

Vague!

Just remembered, if you want vague, try driving an old pre-1980 Skoda Estelle (if you can find one!) Now that _was_ really vague! Steering with a mind of its own.

 

[philharve]

If anybody is interested in the process of refurbishing your steering boxes I would be happy to email you the notes and photos I took documenting the process.

TimN

I would be very interested in seeing your pictures and in particular the close proximity of the steering box to the exhaust system which I assume has to be dropped to gain access to work on the box?

The 'vagueness' I have been referring to becomes only becomes apparent above the UK speed limit. If it were present at any speed I would suspect a worn steering box or ball joints. However, because it appears with increasing speed it is highly likely there are other factors involved, e.g. aerodynamics, weight and distribution, etc. I have noticed that vagueness is much reduced when travelling fast downhill. That's possibly another clue.

REGARDS Phil

 

[television]

Interesting reading all this, My SL with 39k holds a perfect line well over 110mph, this is basically a 124, well the steering and suspention is, it does not follow the camber or anything, its just like my Volvo that I have taken to 120 mph. the old 700 serries Volvo was horrible, no feel or anything, never owned one.

Malcolm