Build quality............

[Craiglxviii]

very interesting. and i believe directly linked to over complication of build gimicks ect. and i bet that the lack of dependability is directly linked to unreliable electrics rather than mechanical failure.

Not so much as you might think. The answer to your post would literally be a doctoral thesis in its own right as we would need to split out each brand into its models, then assign different categories across every model (there are something like 230 models in each survey).

Like I said either in this thread or another one, "build gimmicks" as a statement is both disingenuous and misleading. Many of them are either market requirements or regulation-fit parts; one area where there have been many issues has been self-leveling headlamps where the self-leveling mechanism has failed or lost its calibration, for one example that I know of as a fact.

 

[Frosty149]

I love Mercs, but with several other vehicles I honestly don't know why.

I have a Berlingo Multispace, eight years old now, which is used as a camper. Up to 108k miles now, and nary a hiccup anywhere. It's so smooth! The hdi engine is far quieter than any Merc I've had, and the torque from around 1300 revs amazes me.

Then I get in my Merc, and love the way it eats miles with character. But ... it goes wrong with stupid niggles regularly, and requires cosseting. Other cars have caught up and even surpassed the Mercs for sheer hands-off reliability.

Maybe the time is close to say goodbye.

Snap!
Berlingo 2.0hdi (van) 125k, 12yr old (recently bought).
E350 MB
As earlier, no issues with either except cost of routine maintenance on MB, but, I'm not remotely likely to give up the Merc....

 

[Ductman]

Surely it comes down to expectations being less on a sub-£10k car than on a £30k+ car. Like the OP, I had a 2002/52 reg VW Polo 1.0 (3 cyl engine). I bought it for my daughters to learn to drive and they then drove it for the next 11 years, through uni and climbing trips etc. They returned it to me occasionally to clean it and service it (at my cost of course) and when I could get my hands on it I used it as tip car and for shopping. It did everything we asked of it (first car we turned to when snow was on the ground as with narrow tyres and front wheel drive it would go almost anywhere, whilst the MB's slithered around). Parts especially tyres were cheap and the only thing it needed in those 11 years was to change the condensers (one/plug). And it was fast enough for one of them to get a ticket for 96mph on the M4 - it was an emergency! It was the lowest spec I could get hold of and deliberately went for the lawn mower sized engine so they couldn't speed - some hope as above but they never actually hit anything.

I paid £7k for it new and sold it for, I think, £1600. All in all it was a great little car - for £7k. But I still run 2 x MB's and would not want to be without the aircon, the satnav, the reclining seats, auto box etc etc etc and the effortless cruise capability of an E Class. But as a local run around - cant beat it.

I'm not sure it is about expectations on a sub £10k car in this particular case. I really had no expectations one way or the other when I started preparing my sons car to sell. As is my wont, I'm not happy just with cleaning the bits you can see, so carried out a detailed clean on everything, even hidden components in the engine bay. This allowed me to take a good look at everything and how it is put together which was why I said I was genuinely shocked at the apparent quality of it all.
Driving the car afterwards simply reinforced that view and left me with an overall impression of a quality car that is very well designed and built. Why it even has climate control, despite being a poverty spec supermini.

 

[Craiglxviii]

I'm not sure it is about expectations on a sub £10k car in this particular case. I really had no expectations one way or the other when I started preparing my sons car to sell. As is my wont, I'm not happy just with cleaning the bits you can see, so carried out a detailed clean on everything, even hidden components in the engine bay. This allowed me to take a good look at everything and how it is put together which was why I said I was genuinely shocked at the apparent quality of it all.
Driving the car afterwards simply reinforced that view and left me with an overall impression of a quality car that is very well designed and built. Why it even has climate control, despite being a poverty spec supermini.

But it isn't a poverty-spec brand and marque of supermini. It's basically 2/3 of a Golf, with the massive amounts of development money saved by not having to develop a totally separate supermini ploughed into the technical content offered. That's why they're so good at what they do.

And now VW will be launching soon a Polo-based SUV fairly shortly, which will be equally as awesome.

 

[JBell]

And now VW will be launching soon a Polo-based SUV fairly shortly, which will be equally as awesome.

The T-Rok looks amazing

 

[LostKiwi]

The new XC40 looks very nice as well.

 

[Craiglxviii]

The T-Rok looks amazing

Smaller brother to the T-Roc, which is a Golf Mk.7 platform.

 

[turbopete]

So. These are the results for this year's UK Vehicle Dependability Study. The scoring is based on customer concerns per 100 vehicles over the first 3 years of ownership. As you can see it is somewhat different to the US survey.

View attachment 39423


Germany has it again somewhat different. Note how the Industry Average incidents PP100 is higher than in the UK.

View attachment 39424

The US survey is here. Again you can see the results are skewed in a totally different direction brand-wise. However again you'll notice that the industry average is significantly higher than the UK's.

View attachment 39425

what I find interesting there is that these are 'concerns' (in your own words) and that they vary from country to country. now given that any given car will be pretty much the same irrespective of where its sold (yes there will be SOME variations but essentially a C class is a C class, for example, WHEREVER its sold) so I do actually think its more perception or what the CUSTOMERS believe is acceptable. for example, you might not have an issue with a trim rattle on a £7k Citroen, and live with it, but on, say, a £20+k Ford/Vauxhall, or a £30k BMW/Mercedes, it WOULD be unacceptable (and probably be logged as a 'concern in those figures)
or just that some countries feel more able to complain about problems that other countries would feel were fine.

I do still think that it is, to an extent, all perceived. yes there will be data to back it up to an extent BUT how can, say, Honda perform so much better against its rivals in the tables in the UK compared to Germany? apart from the few parts (steering rack, brake linkage to master cylinder, the rest is pretty much trim like the dash) everything is IDENTICAL between the cars (ECUs, Engines, Transmissions etc) AND taking that into consideration, WHY is the industry average higher in some places than others? the US I can understand as they get many vehicles that we don't, built to sell at MUCH lower cost to the buyer than anything we get here, but as Germany has pretty much exactly the same cars available there as we do here (basically, there may be some spec variations) you would expect the figures to be pretty much similar.

its a shame that we cant get these figures for cars as they get beyond 3 years old, say 5, 8 or even 10+ years old. (yes we know theyre designed for a lifespan of about 8 years but there seems, around here at least, to be an increasing number of cars getting WELL beyond that) id also be interested to see (although the figures probably aren't in the public domain) what exactly the 'concerns' are? are they gadget related/electronic failures? or actual mechanical failures?

 

[Craiglxviii]

what I find interesting there is that these are 'concerns' (in your own words) and that they vary from country to country. now given that any given car will be pretty much the same irrespective of where its sold (yes there will be SOME variations but essentially a C class is a C class, for example, WHEREVER its sold) so I do actually think its more perception or what the CUSTOMERS believe is acceptable. for example, you might not have an issue with a trim rattle on a £7k Citroen, and live with it, but on, say, a £20+k Ford/Vauxhall, or a £30k BMW/Mercedes, it WOULD be unacceptable (and probably be logged as a 'concern in those figures)
or just that some countries feel more able to complain about problems that other countries would feel were fine.

I do still think that it is, to an extent, all perceived. yes there will be data to back it up to an extent BUT how can, say, Honda perform so much better against its rivals in the tables in the UK compared to Germany? apart from the few parts (steering rack, brake linkage to master cylinder, the rest is pretty much trim like the dash) everything is IDENTICAL between the cars (ECUs, Engines, Transmissions etc) AND taking that into consideration, WHY is the industry average higher in some places than others? the US I can understand as they get many vehicles that we don't, built to sell at MUCH lower cost to the buyer than anything we get here, but as Germany has pretty much exactly the same cars available there as we do here (basically, there may be some spec variations) you would expect the figures to be pretty much similar.

its a shame that we cant get these figures for cars as they get beyond 3 years old, say 5, 8 or even 10+ years old. (yes we know theyre designed for a lifespan of about 8 years but there seems, around here at least, to be an increasing number of cars getting WELL beyond that) id also be interested to see (although the figures probably aren't in the public domain) what exactly the 'concerns' are? are they gadget related/electronic failures? or actual mechanical failures?

Yes correct and very perceptive (groan) of you. The difference is more in customer expectations of how cars should perform, it could be argued that Germans and Americans are pickier than we are. Could be some truth to it.

By the way, yes some cars are almost identical from one continent to another, some are significantly different with just the same shape and name. But the point is still valid.

As to your final question- yes those figures are not in the public domain and are very closely guarded. The concerns by the way can range from anything like a failed indicator bulb to a failed transmission. Essentially, anything that involves a visit to a main or franchised dealer with any work being done under warranty.

 

[Rappey69]

Warranty directs top ten rating for uk cars, nothing like jd powers ?
I would tend to trust warranty direct more as they are the ones that actually deal with problematic motors, rather than just surveying people
Position Make/Model
Reliability Rating
1 Toyota iQ 3.00
2 Mitsubishi Lancer 4.00
3 Vauxhall Agila 8.00
4 Hyundai i10 10.00
5 Hyundai Getz 10.00
6 Mercedes-Benz CLC 11.00
7 Nissan Almera Tino 12.00
8 Honda Jazz 12.00
9 Citroen C1 15.00
10 Mazda MX-5

 

[turbopete]

Warranty directs top ten rating for uk cars, nothing like jd powers ?
I would tend to trust warranty direct more as they are the ones that actually deal with problematic motors, rather than just surveying people
Position Make/Model
Reliability Rating
1 Toyota iQ 3.00
2 Mitsubishi Lancer 4.00
3 Vauxhall Agila 8.00
4 Hyundai i10 10.00
5 Hyundai Getz 10.00
6 Mercedes-Benz CLC 11.00
7 Nissan Almera Tino 12.00
8 Honda Jazz 12.00
9 Citroen C1 15.00
10 Mazda MX-5

possibly BUT that snippet doesn't tell us anything really apart from the order that WD rate them in. id also err on the side of caution with their figures as they are in the business of trying to 'scare' you into buying a warranty (as all warranty companies are)

also, looking at that list, you see very few of ANY of them on the roads (possible exception the C1) around here, at least. I cant remember the last Evo I saw, never mind the bog standard lancer! Toyota IQ, almost doesn't exist, etc. so the figures, on the face of it, could be skewed.

for example, its like saying that the Transit van has more faults than any other van of its size. well its BOUND to have when UK Transit sales probably total the same as every other van added together!!! every 3rd vehicle is a Transit almost. and whilst this may be slightly exaggerated, even around here, its not that long ago when if someone said they had a 'big van' (not Escort/astra etc) it was almost GUARANTEED to be a Transit, so they were BOUND to have more issues.

 

[Rappey69]

no pete..
The UK Reliability index takes into account all factors of a repair, the cost of the parts and the frequency of failures - The Average of all cars is 100 which means that if the figure for the car you are looking at has a higher than average index (118) it indicates that that car is less reliable than the average, if however there is a lower than average index (60) the reliability is better.


Separately to this figure you can also look at the average cost of repairs for a particular make or model, a car with a good reliability index and a high average cost would imply that the frequency of failure is low, however when it does fail the bill will be a lot more than the average. Toyota, for example, has a high average cost of repair but quite a good index rating - which means that the car fails infrequently but when it does you will be in for a larger than average bill. Overall however, Toyota is a very strong make of car to buy.

 

[Mr Filipov]

I recently had a W203 C Class written off after having the roof cut off. when I was up and about again, my wife and I, (who are both MB enthusiasts, she drives a 209 CLK Convertible), went looking for a larger car we could get our ageing parents in and out of. We looked at E and M Classes, Audi (but not BMW) and Volvo within a £9000 budget and what we could get locally was not inspiring. Given the knowledge of what goes wrong with the Mercs and others, (generally, not that much other than routine stuff), we looked at practicality, comfort and finish in other cars. I had always been impressed with my daughter's Ford KUGA, my son's Focus, and my neighbour's Mondeo, all of which are very well finished inside and out. In fact, I would say they are as well finished as the equivalent year Mercs. They are all more economical to run than the equivalent Merc and all have had zero issues over a three year period. In contrast, most of the Mercs I looked at were either a bit ratty and worn with malfunctioning kit like the panoramic roof, Sport/Comfort selector on the gearbox, glove box latches, broken electric seats / heated seats / electric mirrors. One had the black death and another was in permanent limp mode (we'll fix that when we sell it!).

Given all of that, we bought a 2011 plate 4WD Kuga with Powershift and all the options with 60k on the clock. It's economical to run and does everything it's asked to with no issues and no rattles. We had a slightly rough wheel bearing changed under the warranty. It's a fantastic car and for me it proves how much Ford have improved against the premium marques like MB, Audi and Volvo. It might be mass produced, but so is everything else.

I might go back to a Merc, but for the moment I'm really pleased with my Ford.

Yeah, about the powersh!t gearbox in fords. Don’t worry that day will come. They are known for throwing the clutch packs like mad.

 

[turbopete]

Yeah, about the powersh!t gearbox in fords. Don’t worry that day will come. They are known for throwing the clutch packs like mad.

that problem was fixed a LONG time ago. they used a wet clutch on some, a dry clutch on the others. I cant remember which way around it was off the top of my head, but it was the version fitted to smaller engines that were affected. the 2.0 Kuga was never an issue, to my knowledge. they launched the powershift about 2007/8 I believe and the issue was supposedly remedied in production around 2011. ive seen plenty of them with WAY over 100k miles advertised to sell without issues. and I have to say, the powershift fitted to dads 2016 Kuga is smoother than the last MB auto I was in by a HELL of a margin.

 

[MalcQV]

I think the quality and finish of cars today has levelled out. Things that stand out to me in the premium sector are interior finishes.
I've not bought a brand new car since 1994, which was a Civic coupe so my experience is all on secondhand cars. I've come to the conclusion that reliability is down to previous and current owners/maintenance.
The car I consider the most unreliable was a 2002 B5.5 Passat. It never left me stranded like two Alfas did and a Renault but I had so much long term hassle with that car overall it was the worst. However I know folk that have had little issues with them.
newest car I have owned was a 2006 car.

So far my CLK has been almost perfect, it has a few issues, A/C does not work, my headlight washers seem to have given up (who cares?) but the car is smooth, quite quick and feels very good quality inside. It is a nicer place to be than the 2002 Passat was, as nice as the Alfa 159 and GT but no groaning suspension like the Alfas.

My previous Alfa 159 I sold to me pal, he hates me now but he spent his time, money and effort on the suspension and the DPF and came to gloat last week. It is now as quiet and smooth as my CLK. He's put it right. It annoyingly is so much quicker too and diesel!

Ultimately my point being most of it is perception. The Honda dealer years ago was superb as was a Mazda dealer. Alfa dealers are renowned to be crap and in my experience they are. They let the brand down.
In contrast to the crap VW, the dealer was very good.

I am changing my car this time next year, another MB looks favourable but it changes all the time.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Quality. This thread needs to address the definitions implicit in that word.

Build quality is how well the cars are put together in plant. Accuracy of spot welds, gap and flush of panels, parts missing etc all fall into this.

Finish quality is how the car leaves the line, have any defects escaped the inspectors, dents/ scratches, misaligned doors etc.

Parts quality is how well the arts not made by MB work as delivered to plant. Pretty much everything not body in white or powertrain falls into this category e.g. it’s a problem with the supplier processes not MB themselves.

Design quality is how well the basic fundamental underlying design of the car’s structures, when assembled to design standard, work. R230 roof seals leaking is a good example of this.

Each of these issues can link into another- not mutually exclusive- but they are all separate in their own right.

 

[Headhurts]

Following a read of this post I had to take SWMBO out shopping, whilst parked up I had a good look around the interior and exterior of the car.

I can really only compare against cars I have owned or driven.

My car is a 2016 S212 E350, the quality of parts and the fittings look superb to me, of course I’m biased but none the less I was impressed.

Interior quality and fit is superb, under the bonnet the lay out and security of wires pipes etc is excellent.

My car was one of a few remaining prior to the latest model so I had to take what was left of the run out cars.

Disappointed that a car of this price point does not have a reverse camera, I will take this to Comand at some point to have this done. (Alfie if you read this I suspect you inbox is full as I cannot message you).

My car is Polar White and the paintwork seems extremely tough compared to other cars I have owned.

I guess there will always be ways to improve cars but at the end of the day the manufacturers want to make as high profit as they can whilst competing against the competition.

Robin


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[mercedes13156]

that problem was fixed a LONG time ago. they used a wet clutch on some, a dry clutch on the others. I cant remember which way around it was off the top of my head, but it was the version fitted to smaller engines that were affected. the 2.0 Kuga was never an issue, to my knowledge. they launched the powershift about 2007/8 I believe and the issue was supposedly remedied in production around 2011. ive seen plenty of them with WAY over 100k miles advertised to sell without issues. and I have to say, the powershift fitted to dads 2016 Kuga is smoother than the last MB auto I was in by a HELL of a margin.

The powershift in mine is utterly seamless. You really have to watch the rev counter to see it change.

 

[turbopete]

The powershift in mine is utterly seamless. You really have to watch the rev counter to see it change.

agreed. dads you really cant feel it change at all. you are either watching the rev counter or deliberately listening for engine note changes with the radio off, to tell when it changes. ive no experience of the 7 or 9 speed MB boxes, but the 722.6 5 speed auto that everyone raved about being so smooth, was never anything LIKE as smooth as the Powershift.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Pete,

I did some asking around for you due to the various threads on “who wants gizmos” and your let hate of cornering lamps. Apparently these originate from Japan. Interesting case, many semi- urban areas of Japan have poor street lighting where kerb illumination is concerned. So, Japanese carmakers saw many reports of wheel trims being replaced due to kerbing. When alloy wheels became commonplace the situation became critical; customers requested solutions and so cornering lamps came in. They were introduced on global models which were also sold in Europe; VAG and MB got in the game and so they became common sights on our roads. Took about 5 years start to finish.