auto or manual

[st4]

If your Old, infirm, lazy, have a disability or American, then you should be granted special dispensation to own and fuel an Automatic and have reduced payments on Carbon Emissions, for all others, Manual, Sequentronic, DSG or CVT should be promoted to save the planet, enjoy driving and maintain youthful enthusiasm

Vive la Sequentronic

.... and for those who havent tried the 7G... smooth as treacle it aint, rough as f*k it is .... CVT is the future for pure smooth effortless drive, twisted oil torque convertors are dinosaurs that just havent realised they are extinct!

Never driven a sequitronic but like the 5sp auto in my car and found the 7sp in the 204 C class very smooth.

Advantages of a TC lie in low speed manouvering, an automated clutch is not as smooth as one the driver manual does and the TC (well its an entirely different system).

Even the DSGs cant match the low speed smoothness of a TC autobox. With a lock up on a conventional auto you can get a "direct" drive so much less energy wastage than you think. The new ZF 8sp automatic in the new BMWs are more efficient than the manuals now, partly due to the intergalactic gearing in top gear but also due to lock up functions etc

For driving involvement I dont like CVT. Drove a Nissan with it and Hyrbid Lexus and its good for hybrids and efficient but takes any pleasure out of driving although in theory its the best method of maintaining optimum torque through a range of speed, then a low engine speed for cruising. It can be made seemlessly smooth with no interuption in power but reduces a cars engine note to that of a sowing machine. Good but souless.

 

[drmw]

I obviously missed this post when it kicked off, but having just read through the lot I'm amazed that people can get so emotional about something so obtuse.

Let's start another thread about rain-sensing wipers, automatic lights, speed sensitive volume control, auto dimming mirrors, electric screen washers and see who gets excited about those (there are some posters on this thread who no doubt could!)

Setting to one side most of the self opinionated nonsense about what's "right" and what's "wrong" - auto or manual is a decision for the driver.

I've had an automatic that was outright dangerous (Peugeot 605 2 litre - I'm not proud about that, but it was a company car) - so underpowered it was awful - but then it was also French. Manual would have been better.

I had a 4.5 litre TVR Cerbera - 430 bhp, 1100kg, off/on clutch - automatic would have been all wrong.

I've got an SL55 now - around 500 bhp and 500ft/lb torque - manual box completely unnecessary although it has paddle things on the steering wheel.

It all comes down to the dynamics of the car - I like both auto and manual - I prefer manual with low power, but that exception aside, if I have enough power it's about how I want to exploit the rest of the car.

Either can give the better experience but it depends on the car, the roads, the traffic and the mood

There's no right or wrong.

 

[psmart]

... speed sensitive volume control...

Dont get me started.... if a car was built right it wouldnt need speed sensitive volume control..... just someone stuck in a vibrating noise machine and a prop wash stirring TC box

Never driven a sequitronic but like the 5sp auto in my car and found the 7sp in the 204 C class very smooth.

Manual, for sheer driving pleasure and control, TC, Sequentronic or CVT cant beat it IMHO, but the sequentronic is a half way house and it alleviates all the problems the Auto brigade complain of on manual boxes, but gives you (over an Auto) higher top speed, acceleration and economy for same engine grunt. True, it can be jerky (but the 1,2 and 3rd in my 7G are worse) and it can mis-select gear in Auto mode (bad programming, nanny doesnt know best), but its a nice compromise between the failings of Auto and the failings of Manual, just isnt everyones cup of tea (Mr Clarkson included).

CVT, yes it is souless if you are in a 'Born to be wild' driving mood, but you dont need to concern yourself with gear or kickdown, press hard and just bother about steering and left foot braking. Regarding smoothness, you cannot compare it to an auto, it is a step beyond what an auto can achieve. In this respect, I hated the Merc CVT simulated gear change as I just couldnt see the point? Why spoil bliss?

 

[st4]

Dont get me started.... if a car was built right it wouldnt need speed sensitive volume control..... just someone stuck in a vibrating noise machine and a prop wash stirring TC box

They stopped doing this to develop pointless cars like the R class

Manual, for sheer driving pleasure and control, TC, Sequentronic or CVT cant beat it IMHO, but the sequentronic is a half way house and it alleviates all the problems the Auto brigade complain of on manual boxes, but gives you (over an Auto) higher top speed, acceleration and economy for same engine grunt. True, it can be jerky (but the 1,2 and 3rd in my 7G are worse) and it can mis-select gear in Auto mode (bad programming, nanny doesnt know best), but its a nice compromise between the failings of Auto and the failings of Manual, just isnt everyones cup of tea (Mr Clarkson included).

There is a satisfaction and interaction you get from a manual car that isnt there with the above. There are common complaints re 7g but some updates have been known to fix it. Cue Hawk20.

To be fair I will take the point re sequitronic but its been outdated by a DSG for gearshift times. Isnt sequitronic quite slow to shift and jerky when manoeuvring. I know the selespeed (alfa) and SMG (BMW) set up which is the same (robotised manual) recieved a lot of stick in the press for this.

What's your opinion of the wetclutch box hooked upto the planetry gearset (7g). Basically MB decided to ditch the TC on the SL63 and new E63 212 and go with a wet clutch coupled to a 7g. The transmission losses in an auto and the areas of concern you list are mainly due to the losses thru a TC (but lets not mention a lock up).

CVT, yes it is souless if you are in a 'Born to be wild' driving mood, but you dont need to concern yourself with gear or kickdown, press hard and just bother about steering and left foot braking. Regarding smoothness, you cannot compare it to an auto, it is a step beyond what an auto can achieve. In this respect, I hated the Merc CVT simulated gear change as I just couldnt see the point? Why spoil bliss?

Quite. There is a reason for this. A pure CVT set up should give "constant" peak torque (i.e. constant engine speed) as the cars speed travels. Essentially as its an infinite system RPM stays constant, engine speed rises. Once achieved, rpm drops to achieve max effiecny. It was stopped as drivers would find the constant engine pitch alien and no shifting at all strange. Marketing bods once again take over.

We may find CVT more prevalent once hybrids really take over.

 

[psmart]

There is a satisfaction and interaction you get from a manual car that isnt there with the above.

Agreed, and if you live in an area where you can enjoy the drive, so much the better. Auto's are great for town and motorway work, but get a bit of undulatiing hill and empty sweeping roads, manual is the perfect choice.

There are common complaints re 7g but some updates have been known to fix it.

Well, not in my case! I think the box is damaged or of poor design/manufacture and Mercedes just refuse to admit/replace it, opting to keep it in a dealer for weeks on end, pretending to make fixes! Prime example, out today driving in the mountains, as you descend, the 7g holds the gear in say 3rd, it then decides that braking force isnt needed so disengages 3rd, no gear selected. then a fraction of a second later, engages 4th and the whole car jolts, just like someone dumping a manual clutch instead of easing it out so that the gears speed up and synchronise. Also, pottering around in the lower gears, the car jolts as it changes, sometimes you get pseudo flaring, where no gear is engaged, revs are increased and then the 7g decides to select the next gear. Higher gears are smooth (ish) but as a whole, the 7g gearbox is from mine and the opinion of those who drive the ML500, a pile of crap. Its only a matter of time before this box explodes, so expect a very loud thread when this occurs, complete with my usual array of photos etc.

To be fair I will take the point re sequitronic but its been outdated by a DSG for gearshift times. Isnt sequitronic quite slow to shift and jerky when manoeuvring.

It can be, but its just a matter of manual shifting at right speed/revs, something which the ECU should learn or have been programmed more intelligently. I drive it quite passionately when the opportunity arises, only using full Auto mode on the odd occasion.

What's your opinion of the wetclutch box hooked upto the planetry gearset (7g). Basically MB decided to ditch the TC on the SL63 and new E63 212 and go with a wet clutch coupled to a 7g. The transmission losses in an auto and the areas of concern you list are mainly due to the losses thru a TC (but lets not mention a lock up).

Not studied the wet clutch, so cant comment, but regarding lock up, it drops about 100rpm on occasion as opposed to the several hundred rpm of the 5G, so not quite the static I originally mentioned, but you have to look hard to notice the rpm drop.

 

[MBDevotee]

Merc's rather odd handbrake arrangement also means you can't apply the handbrake on a hill if the car's still in gear as you can't lift your foot off the clutch to apply the handbrake, whereas with an auto it won't roll back, or you just slot it into park

Auto - no question

 

[Iain the gadget]

Back in the '80's Aston Martin used to fit GMC truck manual gearboxes into the Vantage as none of they own boxes could handle to power

And back in the 70's MOSS came up with the 1st manual gearbox for the Rover/Buick V8 fitted in the Morgan.

 

[Iain the gadget]

You obviously don't drive many manuals, do you? The clutch is foot-operated. It's spelt 'off', btw.

More seriously, I don't feel as in control with an auto and I feel that auto encourages a lazy attitude where the driver doesn't pay enough attention to the road. Others' attitude to it might be different.

You're right, though- let's ban manuals as you & others don't like them.

RH

Sarcasm. When backed up, use sarcasm