Super Unleaded 98ron - wow!

[Oldspanners]

E85 is the compulsory fuel that our Oz Supercars have to run. Seems to be OK. Plenty of power.

Interesting to hear that. But then again they have all the technology.
Here Auto Plus is quoting between €990 and €1390 for a conversion depending on indirect or direct injection (there are other admin fees) and between 20-28K kms to break even at current prices. Not economic for me with this car but with a newer car and doing more kms I would seriously consider it. But with taxes so high on all fuel no doubt a large shift in this direction would negate any benefit.

 

[Botus]

E85 is the compulsory fuel that our Oz Supercars have to run. Seems to be OK. Plenty of power.

e85, makes the bike run like a dog, with lumpy idle, no power and a rough / vibrating engine at all revs. You don't notice straight a way as you are on a part blend, once its done 500 mile on this rubbish it keeps trying to stall and makes much less power

when you fill with proper petrol, it goes all smooth and the front wheel keeps coming off the ground when you accelerate... easily making 5% more go and it doesn't try to stall at tickover

it would be embarrassing to run a lawn mower on that rubbish

I'm confused about E100 now... internet suggests its pure ethanol and used in brazil.... no mention of Europe.

https://epure.org/about-ethanol/fuel-market/fuel-blends/

So either I got E10 (which should be called E90?) and I'm mistaken or ???

 

[LostKiwi]

I'm not surprised your engine doesn't like E85. The number refers to the amount of ethanol.
Therefore E85 is 85% ethanol which unless your engine is designed for it will make it run like a dog and can cause damage (effects of ethanol on rubber seals and engine components). The stoichiometric ratio for ethanol is around 9:1 compared to 14.7:1 for gasoline so you need to inject far more of it.

E10 is what is sold in France so 10% ethanol. E100 would indeed be pure ethanol.

 

[Capra]

I'm not surprised your engine doesn't like E85. The number refers to the amount of ethanol.
Therefore E85 is 85% ethanol which unless your engine is designed for it will make it run like a dog and can cause damage (effects of ethanol on rubber seals and engine components). The stoichiometric ratio for ethanol is around 9:1 compared to 14.7:1 for gasoline so you need to inject far more of it.

E10 is what is sold in France so 10% ethanol. E100 would indeed be pure ethanol.

So this is why ethanol conversions require larger injectors, among a few other changes.

 

[LostKiwi]

So this is why ethanol conversions require larger injectors, among a few other changes.

Correct!

 

[Capra]

Correct!

What time does class start tomorrow?

 

[LostKiwi]

What time does class start tomorrow?

9am. Bring a nice shiny apple...

 

[Oldspanners]

e85, makes the bike run like a dog, with lumpy idle, no power and a rough / vibrating engine at all revs. You don't notice straight a way as you are on a part blend, once its done 500 mile on this rubbish it keeps trying to stall and makes much less power

when you fill with proper petrol, it goes all smooth and the front wheel keeps coming off the ground when you accelerate... easily making 5% more go and it doesn't try to stall at tickover

it would be embarrassing to run a lawn mower on that rubbish

I'm confused about E100 now... internet suggests its pure ethanol and used in brazil.... no mention of Europe.

https://epure.org/about-ethanol/fuel-market/fuel-blends/
As far as I'm aware you need the engine modified with an additional ECU to make it run properly (at all).

So either I got E10 (which should be called E90?) and I'm mistaken or ???

 

[Botus]

I'm not surprised your engine doesn't like E85. The number refers to the amount of ethanol.

E10 is what is sold in France so 10% ethanol. E100 would indeed be pure ethanol.

oh !!! lucky I tend to be with others going slow then ( my experience is E85 is all some station have for "petrol" over there)


"All petrol sold in the EU typically contains up to 5% ethanol (E5 – the “E” stands for ethanol and the “5” stands for the maximum percentage of ethanol content) and this already for a number of years. It is widely available as the default petrol choice. However, the vast majority of commercially available petrol vehicles built since 2000 can run on a mixture of gasoline and up to 10% ethanol, also known as E10.

E10 can be used in about 90% of all petrol-driven cars used in Europe and in 99.7% of the petrol vehicles produced since 2010. E10 is currently available in Belgium, Finland, France and Germany. E10 is now 32% of petrol sales in France and 63% in Finland. Its share of the petrol market in Germany was 12.6% in 2016

A mixture of between 65% and 85% ethanol and the rest petrol, called E85, is widely available in Sweden, France, Germany, and more sporadically in Hungary, Austria, the Netherlands and Spain. E85 reduces tailpipe emissions, has a higher octane rating which improves engine performance, and reduces engine heat and wear. As E85 is predominantly ethanol it has a better impact on air quality since alcohol burns with considerably fewer byproducts than gasoline. It reduces carbon-monoxide emissions and provides significant reductions in emissions of many harmful toxics, including benzene, a known human carcinogen.

E85 requires dedicated ‘flex fuel vehicles’ (FFVs), which are able to run on E85, petrol, or any mixture of the two, without the need for separate fuel tanks. In 2003, Brazil was the first to introduce FFVs, and today they account for more than 90% of new car sales in that country. Unfortunately, Europe is lagging behind and must significantly improve its infrastructure to enable the increased uptake of E85.

Pic is E85 filling stations

 

[LostKiwi]

my experience is E85 is all some station have for "petrol" over there

I don't think I've ever found anywhere that only stocks E85 on the many trips I've made around France. The number of vehicles running E85 is very small and it wouldn't be financially viable on its own.

 

[gizze]

There seems to be some rather patronising, and incorrect, answers to the OP on this thread.

I had my E350 on a rolling road as I believed that it was only set up for 95ron, however, after filling up with Shell 98 for a couple of tank fulls as my EML had come on after using Sainsbury fuel, it genuinely felt much more responsive. I put Shell 95 back in and sure enough it felt flat in comparison.

So, rolling road test.
After a few tanks of Shell V Power it read 301hp. Then took it back again and after a tank of 95ron and 284hp.

I had this before with my 335i, it would constantly lose around 30hp on 95ron compared with 898ron. Someone did some tests comparing fuel and they got the same results. Think it was maybe Evolve Tuning, it was 10 years ago now, but can probably find the threads somewhere like e90post.com with a search. Lots of naysayers and sniggerers on there too.

In the end I found some of the old details for the S212 350 (M276) on one of the time machine archiving websites of Mercedes.de.
This, unlike the UK site/spec, said that the E300, E350 and E500 should use Super Unleaded, but can retard the timing when 95ron is used.

So it is not a placebo OP, these cars have knock sensors and maps for when you use 98ron.

 

[gizze]

I will just add, when coming back from Brugge I had to fill the M3 CSL up with 95ron at some dodgy looking small garage as I the fuel light had gone on and there is only 8 litres in reserve.
The car ran like a complete bag of nuts, so much so I pulled over as I though there may have been water or something in there, turns out it just hated 95ron, only time I ever used it on that.

Also, my E350 throws an EML everytime I use Sainsbury fuel, 95 or 98 doesn't matter, after a few miles EML and when I scan it says unknown fuel additive detected and NOX sensor fault.

Put Shell back in and it goes after 3 or 4 restarts.

 

[LostKiwi]

I will just add, when coming back from Brugge I had to fill the M3 CSL up with 95ron at some dodgy looking small garage as I the fuel light had gone on and there is only 8 litres in reserve.
The car ran like a complete bag of nuts, so much so I pulled over as I though there may have been water or something in there, turns out it just hated 95ron, only time I ever used it on that.

Also, my E350 throws an EML everytime I use Sainsbury fuel, 95 or 98 doesn't matter, after a few miles EML and when I scan it says unknown fuel additive detected and NOX sensor fault.

Put Shell back in and it goes after 3 or 4 restarts.

Virtually every motoring organisation worldwide that has run side by side tests has found virtually no benefit to running 98 RON fuel as opposed to 95vRON fuel.

 

[Capra]

Virtually every motoring organisation worldwide that has run side by side tests has found virtually no benefit to running 98 RON fuel as opposed to 95vRON fuel.

Not sure how valid this is noe but, during the early 2000's I spent a long while running 98 RON in my Astra GTE 16V I noticed no improvement.

 

[L John]

Virtually every motoring organisation worldwide that has run side by side tests has found virtually no benefit to running 98 RON fuel as opposed to 95vRON fuel.

Assuming the engine is designed to use 95 RON.
My guess would be the ones that do have a genuine measurable increase are where the 95 RON is causing the timing to be retarded due to engine problems such as carbon in the cylinder or around the spark plug causing a second point of ignition during the power stroke.
Using 98 will cover up the issue and allow the timing to advance to the normal position.
So not a power boost, just returning to correct running after unintended sandbagging.

 

[gizze]

Virtually every motoring organisation worldwide that has run side by side tests has found virtually no benefit to running 98 RON fuel as opposed to 95vRON fuel.

If there are knock sensors, when it knows it is 98 ron is being used it loads a different map which advances the timing.

If you put 98 ron in a car with no map for 98 ron I agree, but when there is there is. It isn't snake oil, it is just the way it is.

I found the rolling road print out from the 335i tests...



Go on the Mercedes.de website now, some cars are listed as super (95) and some as super plus (98)...


It isn't some trick, many cars from BMW, Mercedes and others have given figures based on when filled with 98 ron, it even says in some of the spec sheets that the BHP and MPG is based on using 98ron.

 

[gizze]

Assuming the engine is designed to use 95 RON.

But that is the point, many are designed and set up to run on 98ron, they can use 95ron, but timing is retarted which reduces power (more so with forced induction usually) and also MPG.

My E350 got roughly 8% better mpg when I started using 98ron. It was 26-27mpg from 70k to 90k, then when I started using 98ron it suddenly went up to 29-30mpg, that was from 90-112k.

Usually took 2 tanks of 98ron to get it feeling good, the minute you put even a 1/4 tank of 95 back in you could feel the difference again. I knew when my wife had put 95 in every time. Used to annoy the hell out of me.

 

[gizze]

Virtually every motoring organisation worldwide that has run side by side tests has found virtually no benefit to running 98 RON fuel as opposed to 95vRON fuel.

Not actually sure what you are saying?

Are you saying you don't believe the manufacturers that they have knock sensors and set up many of their cars for use with higher octane fuel?

Here is a rolling road of the M3 on 95 and different super unleadeds...



A I said, a lot of ignorance being spouted in this thread.

As there is on so many car forums about this subject. The above test was done by Thorneymotorsport back on the old M3 forum as loads of owners were saying the same thing on their. Then when they did the test everyone started using 98 and were all converts.

BMW N52 3 litre straight six is a great engine to test it on, NA and really sings when run on 98, drops from around 230hp to 205hp which is really noticeable on a NA engine, but the biggest difference is how much quieter the engine sounds, it purrs like a sewing machine when run on 98 and can sound a bit tappety when run on 95, everyone noticed that too.

 

[gizze]

Perhaps give Mercedes a call and ask why their E300 needs 98ron, hearing it from the horses mouth may get you to believe?

 

[L John]

If an engine is designed for 98 it will run best on that fuel, pretty obvious really. The M3 is designed for 98 isn't it?

If an engine is designed for 95 there should be no knock and so there should be no need for the electronics to retard the timing. In this case 98 wont do much in the way of performance gains.