Deadly SBC failure - warranty extension in USA and Canada

[Botus]

I just read on USA forum that SBC as fitted to the w211 can fail with no prior errors / or warning leaving the vehicle with no brakes at all.

Apparently a built in service life within SBC effectively just turns them off mid drive

Canada warranty extended to 15 years
USA warranty extended to 25 years

https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/e-class-w211/422852d1573567032-sbc-nhtsa-sbc-2.pdf

https://mbworld.org/forums/attachme...635685-sbc-nhtsa-sbc-warranty-extension-r.pdf

 

[NBurns]

I just read on USA forum that SBC as fitted to the w211 can fail with no prior errors / or warning leaving the vehicle with no brakes at all.

Apparently a built in service life within SBC effectively just turns them off mid drive

Canada warranty extended to 15 years
USA warranty extended to 25 years

https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/e-class-w211/422852d1573567032-sbc-nhtsa-sbc-2.pdf

https://mbworld.org/forums/attachme...635685-sbc-nhtsa-sbc-warranty-extension-r.pdf

Sorry, what's the SBC?



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[malcolm E53 AMG]

Now that we are leaving the EU at last our customer protection might improve and address issues like SBC and other manufacturing design problems including white goods not fit for purpose instead of the consumer always being the victim

 

[Blobcat]

Sorry, what's the SBC?



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Sensonic Brake Control - as fitted to CL, SL & E - you don't have it

 

[LostKiwi]

Now that we are leaving the EU at last our customer protection might improve and address issues like SBC and other manufacturing design problems including white goods not fit for purpose instead of the consumer always being the victim

Why would it? The EU has always been hot on consumer rights and to be honest we coukd have improved our consumer rights at any time within our legal system.
I'd actually expect the opposite to occur...

 

[bembo449]

and to add to LK's point , how many major issues like the crank snapping on the LR/jaguar tdv6 engine to name but one , never been recalled , owners just left to pick up the costs so I wouldn't hold your breath if you think it will improve after we leave

 

[NBurns]

Sensonic Brake Control - as fitted to CL, SL & E - you don't have it

okay. Thank you. Maybe my next Mercedes-Benz.


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[bembo449]

okay. Thank you. Maybe my next Mercedes-Benz.


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ruddy el man don't go looking for trouble !

 

[NBurns]

ruddy el man don't go looking for trouble !

Of course not. However I am sticking with Mercedes-Benz cars. Unless in order to get my finances back to solvency i get a VW temporarily.


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[bembo449]

id rather have an old Mercedes than a new VW pal

 

[EmilysDad]

okay. Thank you. Maybe my next Mercedes-Benz.


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MB stopped fitting fly by wire brakes years ago ....

 

[malcolm E53 AMG]

Why would it? The EU has always been hot on consumer rights and to be honest we coukd have improved our consumer rights at any time within our legal system.
I'd actually expect the opposite to occur...

One can only hope the situation will improve, the carnage faulty white goods are causing is criminal and the irony of that is that Whirlpool are based in the US so it’s hit and miss with regulation wherever you look another point in case being the FAA and Boeing. It seems we are entering a new era in design, manufacture and assembly cost cutting so buyer beware

 

[Botus]

I had my fathers w211 on diagnostic in last week to remove brake warning message from "defective or missing aux battery" (after I replaced it), when I was hunting about, I found 2 incidences of brake failure stored in unclearable memory, with the first at 95k KM (its done 107k Miles now)

if you read the USA forum, seems quite a few find they have no brakes and for the last 18 months have been busy getting lucky missing things. I wrote to DVSA https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-recalls-and-faults/report-a-serious-safety-defect , Merc customer services and BBC watchdog about this today https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/e-class-w211/422852d1573567032-sbc-nhtsa-sbc-2.pdf

 

[AMGeed]

It's been this way for a long time with the US getting extended warranties on SBC and also a free replacement for leaking fuel pumps on the W211.
The UK have been very badly treated by Mercedes in this respect, and I'm certain if we had the same punitive litigation as the US we may be treated the same.

 

[Philedge]

Apparently a built in service life within SBC effectively just turns them off mid drive

AFAIK if the service life limit is reached you get a white warning on the dash, but still have fully working brakes. Obviously if you ignore the warning then Darwinism will eventually catch you up!

As I understand SBC theres never been an instance of 100% brake loss attributable to a maintained SBC unit. There's very limited instances of brake failure where braking effect is massively reduced, on a maintained system and without any prior warning.

Like ABC, SBC is a brilliant system, when its maintained.

 

[Botus]

the posts I'm reading come with no warnings beforehand at all,

you're driving a long not a care in the world and first you know about any issues with the brakes is you go to apply normally and suddenly presented with red message on instrument cluster, audible bings and bongs and suddenly you have no power assistance to the brakes and even worse now its only the rear brakes functioning !!! owners saying will all their effort applied its taking about 8 to 10 times longer to come to rest

first time I've seen anything about it, yet it first came up in 2015, makes the 737 max 8 flight controls seem air worthy !!!

 

[Philedge]

the posts I'm reading come with no warnings beforehand at all,

The posts may well be true, but thats not down to the service limit being reached.

 

[LostKiwi]

the posts I'm reading come with no warnings beforehand at all,

you're driving a long not a care in the world and first you know about any issues with the brakes is you go to apply normally and suddenly presented with red message on instrument cluster, audible bings and bongs and suddenly you have no power assistance to the brakes and even worse now its only the rear brakes functioning !!! owners saying will all their effort applied its taking about 8 to 10 times longer to come to rest

first time I've seen anything about it, yet it first came up in 2015, makes the 737 max 8 flight controls seem air worthy !!!

This is incorrect.
When SBC fails only front brakes work albeit with no assistance.
This isn't the big deal it's made out to be - it just catches people by surprise. I had an Australian muscle car that didn't have power assisted brakes. I raced it round a circuit and never had any issues stopping it. I also towed trailers loaded with a car. It just required a very hefty push of the brakes. Ever wondered why the pedal is so large?
There is a question to be asked here too ;
Has the SBC counter ever been reset prior to failure occuring?
The driver of the vehicle may have bought it in good faith not knowing it had been reset. There are kits available on eBay that allow anyone to reset the counter without doing the checks the dealer would. If the system is properly maintained there is no reason to expect any significant number of early life failures (and isn't it strange all the reports are from the US?).
Now I personally would be very happy if MB have a lifetime warranty on all SBC pumps but I don't see why they should and I don't see that they will.

 

[Botus]

you can't possibly tell me modern cars without assistance (on the brakes) are safe

I'm 110kg and cycle everyday, and its almost impossible to get a ford focus to stop from 3mph on a 10 degree slope once the assistance is gone

and in case you think I'm a wimp, when I was 18 years old and about 80kg I could apply the brakes harder than any of the other 10 techs on site (we had gauges on a jag that we couldn't cure a pulling issue, so had connected gauges to the front brakes and I could push 20% more than any other guy could).

The safety issue is that this is not linked to some unserviced wreck driven badly. A fully serviced vehicle, in tip top condition driven by an expert fully alert driver can instantaneously have (effectively) no brakes.

Assuming its OK as the driver just needs to pull up at some point is not acceptable at all. This is impacting the safety of anyone in the UK (and worldwide). This failure is totally unexpected, yet deliberately engineered in to the car in software!!!.
The minimum should be a recall to replace it with a normal system that works properly.

You must have been in a car where its lost power assistance on the steering unexpectedly ? Ever driven a car with an unstable idle and it cuts out as you change down for a corner, even this minute interruption to the PAS means 9 out of 10 times you will go straight on (at normal driving speeds) and PAS assistance is NOTHING like PAB. A lack of power steering is easy to cope with above 20mph (when you know), whilst its almost impossible to stop a car where its lost assistance on the brakes.

SBC is a ridiculous system giving hideous pedal feel, silly noises and no sensible benefits at all - if it did, it would be used by other manufacturers and Mercedes themselves wouldn't have ditched it...

 

[V6Matty]

you can't possibly tell me modern cars without assistance (on the brakes) are safe

I'm 110kg and cycle everyday, and its almost impossible to get a ford focus to stop from 3mph on a 10 degree slope once the assistance is gone

and in case you think I'm a wimp, when I was 18 years old and about 80kg I could apply the brakes harder than any of the other 10 techs on site (we had gauges on a jag that we couldn't cure a pulling issue, so had connected gauges to the front brakes and I could push 20% more than any other guy could).

The safety issue is that this is not linked to some unserviced wreck driven badly. A fully serviced vehicle, in tip top condition driven by an expert fully alert driver can instantaneously have (effectively) no brakes.

Assuming its OK as the driver just needs to pull up at some point is not acceptable at all. This is impacting the safety of anyone in the UK (and worldwide). This failure is totally unexpected, yet deliberately engineered in to the car in software!!!.
The minimum should be a recall to replace it with a normal system that works properly.

You must have been in a car where its lost power assistance on the steering unexpectedly ? Ever driven a car with an unstable idle and it cuts out as you change down for a corner, even this minute interruption to the PAS means 9 out of 10 times you will go straight on (at normal driving speeds) and PAS assistance is NOTHING like PAB. A lack of power steering is easy to cope with above 20mph (when you know), whilst its almost impossible to stop a car where its lost assistance on the brakes.

SBC is a ridiculous system giving hideous pedal feel, silly noises and no sensible benefits at all - if it did, it would be used by other manufacturers and Mercedes themselves wouldn't have ditched it...

Mercedes didn’t ditch it, SBC is still I use now just a slightly different set up.
How many accidents have you heard of where the contributing factor was SBC pump failure, me I’ve heard about zero, the one or two stories I have heard about is where people have been ignoring the white error message and then have a little bit of a panic when the error finally goes red because the pump can no longer make pressure, leaving you with the equivalent of 10% braking force at under 10 mph (yes you read it right 10mph, no a single story has been for anyone on a motorway or speeds above a sprited walk).
SBC was a good system if serviced as it should be, if neglected it would turn around and bite you back. After personally owning a SBC equipped car I would have one again, the stopping power was much better than even my 212 is now, and having had the white message had the pump checked out and count extended as it was making pressure well within the limits of a test by STAR.

The US and Canada are quick to do a class action and often win due to volume. Now the class action with SBC, wasn’t actually won, it was settled outside of court with free lifetime pump replacement as long as the service record for the braking system was followed. As a side note, the company I work for handled the class action as well as a number of others against car manufacturers, they very rarely set out to win, but a good settlement is what they consider a win.