1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

anti diesel idea not working.....

Discussion in 'Motoring Related Discussion' started by turbopete, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. oigle

    oigle Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,745
    Likes Received:
    123
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2005
    Location:
    Redcliffe, Queensland, Australia
    Your Mercedes:
    Currently 2003 ML270. 2012 Nissan Maxima 250SL.
    Trouble is - if depreciation was properly considered when buying a car, none of us would buy a new one. As per some of the previously mentioned examples. Just as well some people are well enough heeled to "not care" about the costs of running and just buy for the joy of owning a new car with that lovely new smell.

    Ian.
     
  2. davemercedes

    davemercedes Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,017
    Likes Received:
    381
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Location:
    Worcs
    Your Mercedes:
    2007 Merc 220 CDi Est Auto Av
    But a lot of people aren't well heeled enough to buy a car "for fun" and have to consider the cost. This gets broken down by the stealer into monthly amounts for PCP or outright purchase and includes the loss on deprecation. I looked at Lexus PCP prices about 3 -4 years ago and thought they were too high for what you got - but that was my opinion. Of course, some PCP prices disguise a "subsidy" from the manufacturer who is usually hell bent on creating or maintaining market share and keeping production levels constant - which is good for the buyer at the time but to my mind that's part of the industry's "death wish" where fall over fighting to give the lowest price.
     
  3. OP
    turbopete

    turbopete Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,219
    Likes Received:
    301
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2009
    Location:
    Spennymoor
    Your Mercedes:
    2010 '60' Ford Mondeo 2.0TDCi Zetec (sorry)
    not really. take the night vision system on the 221. there have been a couple of members on here (in fact I believe Malcolm was one) who had the system on their car. what use was it? IIRC Malcolm said there was about a 3 second lag between the camera and what you could see using your eyes and headlights, so you couldn't actually DRIVE using the system, so what was the point of it? every manufacturer uses a canbus system of some sort or another, often adding in extra complexities where there needn't be any (like having to code things to the car to make them work when in the past they were a simple plug and play unit) so again, why? except to add in a failure factor that means you have to return to the dealers rather than having the fault fixed by your local guy? if its all done in the name of cost to manufacture, why aren't cars coming DOWN in price if, as you claim, they are so much cheaper to make? a Mondeo Zetec (equivalent of the original LX) is best part of £10k MORE to buy (list price) now than they were at the launch in 1993. yes there is inflation to take into account but there would have to be some level of inflation for a price to almost DOUBLE in that time.
    as for facts/figures about electronic failures on MB against equivalent Lexus, if such figures existed, YOU would have them. I know of NOT ONE person who has owned a MB over 10 years old that hasn't had some sort of electrical issues, and few of those cars had little over 100k miles, if they were over 100k, yet I knew a guy who had a 1994 LS400 AND a 1995 GS300 at the same time. the LOWER mileage car (the GS300) had almost 300k miles on it, the LS had over 400k and neither car had cost him ANYTHING in repairs. also add to the fact that Lexus warranty things like tyre pressure sensors in the wheels for LIFE (at £80 each just for the unit, as the owner informed us when we couldn't remove one so he phoned Lexus and they replaced it under warranty on a car with 120k miles and 10 years old, no questions about where it had been serviced etc) and MB probably wouldn't entertain a claim on a car over 3 years old without documented proof of MB servicing (like that matters to a tyre pressure monitor) and even then would probably be a goodwill contribution. and I use tyre pressure monitors as an example of something ive actually witnessed, rather than heard from a 'bloke down the pub' type scenario.

    as for MB being a 'premium' brand, sorry but as much as I loved owning every one of mine, I don't feel theyre really a 'premium' brand. yes they may have a better NVH package than many but that's about where the 'premium' bit ends. they rust faster than Fords, they have paint issues on the reds that no other brand seems to have, they have timing chain related issues on engines used in stop/start scenarios (OM651 guides for example) and overly complicated electronics makes repair outside of dealerships (especially if theres no local specialists very difficult) hence the need for STAR when every other manufacturer can be read using a generic code reader like the Delphi DS150E. MBs used to be GREAT cars. simple to work on (even compared to Ford or Vauxhall etc) durable and reliable to as near perfection as could be. now theyre just GOOD cars. awkward to repair (if you can repair them without specialist equipment like STAR) no more durable than any other brand (ive seen 2011 Mondeos with over 300k on the clock, for example) and they have issues that really shouldn't occur on a premium brand. like injector seal issues or fuel line o ring issues to name just 2. and all in the name of saving a few pennies per car, and to do things better for the sake of about 20p per car would have ZERO effect on list prices (like using proper fuel hose with clips instead of plastic lines with o rings, for example)
     
    bembo449 likes this.
  4. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,052
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Location:
    Cambs UK
    Your Mercedes:
    W215 CL500 Garage Queen; W211 E320 Avantgarde Estate Designo Edition
    Ok. Scuse the briefness of the reply as I’m a bit tied up today.

    “Fancy” electronics means a different architecture. Lexus, Infiniti et al also have night vision cameras, near field effect automatic door handles and the like. They’re just using a different system architecture. In many cases the exact same modules as it’s cheaper for a small scale OEM to buy someone else’s kit than develop their own. Daimler are particularly good at selling their kit under license. These types of kit are called “added value”. Like heated wash nozzles, they’re not necessary for vehicle function but are useful and enrich the customer experience, as the marketing boys say.

    Every manufacturer uses csnbus but not every module is linked to it. Japanese cars don’t have window or sunroof regulators on the canbus except to report “working” or “not working”. A good example is looking at the difference between an MB window switch pack and a Toyota one. MB has data cables going into it. Toyota’s has power cables.

    As to why code things, the reason there is typically to keep performance symmetrical. Let’s say you have an LED daytime running lamp or DRL. LEDs fade as they age until they reach 70% of original brightness at which point they have “failed”. They fade according to a mathematically predictable formula. However the input power can be ramped up to make them more bright, so as the internal hours run clock moves forwards by say 10 hours, the driver might step up by 25mA or so. Now say one of those lamps fails. The new one is fitted and immediately looks different to the old one. So it needs coding to reflect the existing lamp’s hour clock. There are many modules not just lamps that this is applicable to.

    As to cost, remember that OEMs are there to stay in business and make profits. The prices they charge are decoupled from the costs they pay by both interest rates and market forces. The total delivered cost of a vehicle is a very closely guarded secret. Toyota released theirs for the Avensis on launch and it was around £12k from memory, Burnaston announced they were making £500 per car profit at plant and that was a game changer for Europe (actually the world). The tdc of a C Class is around, our guess for mid grade, the £17k mark but this £5k increase has the effect on the market of almost doubling its sales price compared to Asian competitors.

    As to premiumness that is set by customer perception and ze Germans excel at all the “soft stats” that make people want to get in and stay in the car during the golden hour of a showroom visit. Things like the lifting force, resistance dynamics and breaking point of window switches. Or the soft touch feel of dash covering. Many things there contribute to overall opinion or OaO.

    Regards working on cars, OEMs are interested in getting and keeping you as a locked in customer. That means servicing plans included in your monthly payment for the 8.1 years they think you will keep the car from new. What happens to it after that doesn’t concern them at all as from that point it stops generating revenue.
     
    GLK likes this.
  5. John Laidlaw

    John Laidlaw Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,654
    Likes Received:
    3,019
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    Location:
    Wirral
    Your Mercedes:
    W212 E63 ///AMG V8 Biturbo Volvo XC90 2018
  6. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,198
    Likes Received:
    4,233
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2006
    Location:
    Midlands / Charente-Maritime
    Your Mercedes:
    '93 500SL-32, '01 W210 Estate E240, 02 R230 SL500 (Malcolm Spec), 04 Smart Roadster Coupe
    Volvo needed VADIS when I had one and Saab needed their own as well. Locking the car to diagnostics is not uncommon.
    Sure you'll get something with any car ( but you get something on a Mercedes with the Delphi as well.
     
  7. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,052
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Location:
    Cambs UK
    Your Mercedes:
    W215 CL500 Garage Queen; W211 E320 Avantgarde Estate Designo Edition
    Well. I was in the middle of boarding out my attic so it started off as a quick reply. Then I put the phone down and started on another section. Finished for a brew and wrote some more.

    By the time I’d finished I’d wrote that ;)
     
  8. Craiglxviii

    Craiglxviii Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,052
    Likes Received:
    2,087
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Location:
    Cambs UK
    Your Mercedes:
    W215 CL500 Garage Queen; W211 E320 Avantgarde Estate Designo Edition
    As regards penny pinching. 20p per car is HUGE. MB’s build for 2017 was 2,198,000. 20p off each car becomes £440k, which will pay for new body side tooling for one model. That’s big stuff. As to not having effect on list price, you’re right. That’s set by what the market will bear. However it becomes 20p of profit the manufacturer was planning on making that they now have to fund from elsewhere. As each model has a business plan, it looks at how the 20p will affect it. Nothing happens in isolation.

    Pete, I keep on telling you this stuff. Rather than arguing against it why don’t you listen?
     
  9. OP
    turbopete

    turbopete Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,219
    Likes Received:
    301
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2009
    Location:
    Spennymoor
    Your Mercedes:
    2010 '60' Ford Mondeo 2.0TDCi Zetec (sorry)
    I do, but for the sake of 20p is it really worth the expense if it all goes belly up? Ford tried it on the Vacuum pumps on the old 1.8D engines, as fitted to the mk1 Mondeo. they had to recall EVERY diesel engine car and replace the vacuum pumps. they tried to penny pinch again on the mk2 Mondeo with rear brake hoses. again there was a recall needing the rear hoses needed replaced. then the mk4 (1995ish) fiesta was filled with a cheaper brand of brake fluid which caused issues with the brake and clutch rubber hoses and, you guessed it, ANOTHER recall to flush the hydraulic systems with a better grade of DOT4 brake fluid. now how many millions will that have cost, for the sake of a few coppers per car? and its not just confined to Ford or MB but I have to wonder how much could be saved by NOT trying to save and having to carry out warranty repairs or recalls, long term. ive run Fords pretty much all my life, as has my dad. we have owned bright red cars and never ONCE had paint blistering issues, yet almost every MB seems to be affected by it. why? it cant be water based paint as everyone uses it. its penny pinching in either prep or with the paint process. and how much is a respray? lets say £3k per car. its not long before doing the job right at the manufacturing point at an extra £2 per car (id guess) suddenly makes economic sense. and lets be honest, if MB were as good at building things as is claimed here on many occasions, why don't they offer 5, 7 or even 10 year warranties. Hyundai and Kia offer 5 and 7 year warranties and theyre amongst the cheapest brands available. if MB build things so well, why WONT they match it? same for VAG, BMW etc. if theyre so well made, put your claims up for scrutiny and match (or better) the budget brands.

    but we know the answer is simple. adding unnecessary complexity for the sake of it, so it fails. you said yourself that the Japanese don't run window regulators, for example, on the canbus except for working or not, so why does MB feel the need to? to add complexity, plain and simple. Toyotas have one shot lowering and have had since the 90s so its not for any function, and virtually every car on the market has global opening/closing nowadays, so its unlikely to need canbus for that either.
     
  10. OP
    turbopete

    turbopete Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,219
    Likes Received:
    301
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2009
    Location:
    Spennymoor
    Your Mercedes:
    2010 '60' Ford Mondeo 2.0TDCi Zetec (sorry)
    not uncommon for certain modules perhaps, BUT as I use the Delphi at work its the one I can comment on most. when someone posts up a fault code for engine related issues on here, the first question is 'is that a STAR fault code?' except that shouldn't matter as the whole point of EOBD (or OBD2 if you prefer which is technically the US equivalent) is to STANDARDISE the fault codes. so a P1086 (if such a fault code exists) means EXACTLY the same on a fiat, ford, Peugeot, Mercedes, BMW, Citroen, VW, Audi, Seat etc. so unless its MB specific modules, the code reader should be IRRELEVANT as far as codes go.

    the Delphi will access the modules ive tried on my Mondeo, including DPF regens, it reads Seats, Ivecos, VWs (its on 2013 software so not tried it on anything newer) but every vehicle ive tried it on, it worked, with the exception of a 2004 Vauxhall combo diesel (it refuses to read anything on that) and my old 2001 203. it would read the dash modules, but little if anything else. which begs the question, whats the point of having the standardised system if manufacturers are going to circumvent it even with engine codes?
     
  11. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,198
    Likes Received:
    4,233
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2006
    Location:
    Midlands / Charente-Maritime
    Your Mercedes:
    '93 500SL-32, '01 W210 Estate E240, 02 R230 SL500 (Malcolm Spec), 04 Smart Roadster Coupe
    For almost all cars there are generic codes and manufacturer specific codes within the engine management ECU. The generic ones have defined meanings as laid down to international standards. Some codes (that can be read by generic readers) are not the generic codes but the manufacturer specific ones. When a generic reader queries the the fault logs the car will return all the codes for the ECU irrespective of whether they are specific or generic and the reader will then apply its interpretations of them in the descriptions. Therefore it is perfectly valid to ask if the code reported is being read on a STAR (or other MB specific reader) or not.
    Even with MB specific readers (iCarsoft for example) I have seen codes not found by the iCarsoft that are found by by STAR and some codes reported differently. Andy Rudge and I saw this when we were looking at his car at one point and I've seen it since on other cars.

    This is not just an MB thing either. Volvo are similar. So are Saab. Ford may use only generic codes (as perhaps do others) but often the enhanced manufacturer codes can supply more information than otherwise possible. Some MB codes for example have a 2 character subcode when read with a specific reader.
     
  12. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,198
    Likes Received:
    4,233
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2006
    Location:
    Midlands / Charente-Maritime
    Your Mercedes:
    '93 500SL-32, '01 W210 Estate E240, 02 R230 SL500 (Malcolm Spec), 04 Smart Roadster Coupe
    Just to add to the last post...
    P**** codes are power train
    B**** codes are body
    C**** codes are chassis
    U**** are CAN/network.

    For power train in general:
    P0xxx codes are generic
    P1xxx codes are manufacturer specific
    P2xxx codes are generic
    P30xx to P3399 are manufacturer specific
    P34xx to 39xx are generic

    Within the P**** goup.:
    Px1xx and Px2xx are fuel mixture related
    Px3xx are ignition or misfire
    Px4xx are auxillary emissions codes
    Px5xx are vehicle speed control related
    Px6xx are ECU specific
    Px7xx to Px9xx are transmission related
    PxAxx to PxCxx are related to hybrid technologies.

    In my experience it's rare a generic reader will read anything but P**** codes below Px6xx
     
  13. davemercedes

    davemercedes Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,017
    Likes Received:
    381
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Location:
    Worcs
    Your Mercedes:
    2007 Merc 220 CDi Est Auto Av
    Our daughter just found some old photos which include the Standard 10 van I used as my runaround back in 1966/7... I mounted a theatre double seat in the back - sideways - which left enough room to put her folding pram thingy next to it. -That fixed in place with a couple of "U" brackets each side that went through the wheel spokes.

    I can hear you thinking "Real technology!" etc. Well now, to service the engine all I needed was a set of 4 x Spark Plugs, a bit of emery paper (or a set of points) and I used to go mad and replace the condenser as well. Add in the 20/50 Oil and away it went for another 5000 miles. But anyone who learnt anything about cars/engines could do this - for peanuts!
     
  14. LostKiwi

    LostKiwi Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,198
    Likes Received:
    4,233
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2006
    Location:
    Midlands / Charente-Maritime
    Your Mercedes:
    '93 500SL-32, '01 W210 Estate E240, 02 R230 SL500 (Malcolm Spec), 04 Smart Roadster Coupe
    Six of my first nine cars were like that... 4 or 6 spark plugs, points and condenser and job done. If they ever stopped diagnostics were dead easy too.
     

Share This Page