Discussion in 'Politics' started by prwales, Feb 19, 2016.
anyone dare to venture an opinion
on the fence
Missed a 'shake it all about' gag there!
But could be out.
that was the next post after covering all the bases
If we were not in today would we vote to join?
The fun we will have on this little island if it's out!!
More than happy to trade with them, but not to be part of a Federal State of Europe.
Histories, Cultures and people are different and should remain so in my opinion.
How about the bigger one next door?
The bigger one next door will not have a land border with an EU country.
"We have confused the real issue of parliamentary democracy, for already there has been a fundamental change. The power of electors over their law-makers has gone, the power of MPs over Ministers has gone, the role of Ministers has changed. The real case for entry has never been spelled out, which is that there should be a fully federal Europe in which we become a province. It hasn't been spelled out because people would never accept it. We are at the moment on a federal escalator, moving as we talk, going towards a federal objective we do not wish to reach. In practice, Britain will be governed by a European coalition government that we cannot change, dedicated to a capitalist or market economy theology. This policy is to be sold to us by projecting an unjustified optimism about the Community, and an unjustified pessimism about the United Kingdom, designed to frighten us in"
Tony Benn 1975
The difficulty is that nobody knows with any certainty what the consequences of "out" will be.........nor for that matter what the consequences of "in" will be.
Furthermore the idea of a referendum is good in theory but most of the electorate will not have enough information upon which to make an informed decision and what information there is available will not be fully understood by the vast majority.
Ministers, MPs and "captains" of industry are divided based upon their own particular crystal ball so the electorate is getting, and will continue to get, mixed messages and a lot of misinformation emanating from an unstable foundation of "knowledge".
The government have made certain promises within their election manifesto which will not be deliverable and it is becoming clear that the current negotiations will result in something of a dilution of the original aspiration but being "sold" to the electorate as something of a success story.
In this respect the government have done themselves no favours in their ability to persuade the electorate to vote "in".
In itself the government's inability to significantly change the terms of our staying "in" is not a very good reason to vote either "in or "out".........we have to vote on what is available.
I fear that most votes will be cast without an understanding of whatever "facts" are perceived to be available but cast entirely based on emotive misconceptions.
Was politics ever thus?
Looks like Germany will finally get her empire, no third world war though, just stealth.
(I fear that most votes will be cast without an understanding of whatever "facts" are)
The facts are we are not in control of our boarders or our sovereignty and Europe exports 3 times the amount of goods to us than we export to them so jobs wont be an issue, there is the rest of the world for our exports.
Why has a boy gone to do a man's job? The boy went for nothing, has got less than nothing, stupid boy. A boy who threw the towel in and won't fight for a 3rd term, a boy who has no understanding of standing on your own 2 feet with inheritance and a wife who has inheritance too.
The UK has always traded globally, and always will. I'm thinking of my lifetime, never worked in Europe, always globally. Next gig looks to be far east.
Sovereignty is too valuable to give to unelected muppets.
The consequences of out will be that we will be able to decide on how we deal with the problems caused by a Federal Europe.
We already know what the consequences of in are, more of the same.
What are the implications for expats in the rest of Europe?
I'm very much afraid that the end result of the vote will be completely decided by what is said in the press and as most of the Tory press seems to be for "out" ( Mail, Express, [Murdock!!! - he'll make more money if we're out I guess] etc) and people believe the half truths they espouse I can't see there being a really fair spread of information ( just like there wasn't at the last election).
"IN" from me ( as my Dad, aged 96 and a lifelong conservative voter, said yesterday, he saw the result of WW1 and went through WW2 21 years later BUT we've had 71 years with no European war since then - he says for military peace although not necessarily political peace it's got to be IN!)
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