Time to end the Great Diag Rip-Off

[turbopete]

as daft as the OPs suggestion maty seem on the surface, i can see SOME logic in it.

EOBD (or OBDII for those not in europe) was supposed to standardise all codes for engines as a minimum. so that SHOULD mean that any code that STAR can pull, can be pulled my a generic £20 ebay code reader and it SHOULD be the same fault. except that we know the codes are NOT always interpreted correctly by the cheapo scanner (as the manufacturers play the rules to their advantage to get you back to their workshop theoretically)
the other rip-off as far as diagnostics goes is the sheer cost of some of the systems and, of course now, the reliance to be 'connected' to the manufacturer via the internet.
now ignoring cars for a moment that have to be coded online (newer MBs for example), the last i heard, a genuine STAR set-up cost something like £11k + subscription.
given the fact that something like a Delphi DS150E or similar, even genuine can be bought from online retailers (official outlets) for less than 1/3rd the price of star and have pretty much the same functionality according to the sales info (they can code injectors etc which at the time i looked was pretty much a STAR only job)
then theres the cost of the machines anyhow. I know that theres varying qualities of kit out there, but if you can get STAR equipment made and sent to you from ebay or china etc for £400 or less, how do MB justify £11k ffor something little or no different and probably even made in the same factory? THESE are where i feel the genuine rip-offs are.

would i pay £30 for codes to be read? probably if i needed to. would i pay MBs rate? (£68 for half hour min charge when i had the 210) not a chance.

 

[television]

I know you do Malcolm & I didn't mean it to sound as though STAR was the only answer ..... you've sent me details of stuff for my car. But on the whole, there are no How to do sections here like on other car related forums ..... possibly due to the marque & most owners have the money to let someone else do the spanner work

Again I have done my fair share of articles for the DIY section on here, many others have done good DIY's as well for common faults. Have you taken the time to write out what you have done ??

 

[EmilysDad]

.... Have you taken the time to write out what you have done ??

Other than wash it, I've not done anything myself

I tell a lie ... I've replaced both indicator side repeaters from each door mirror using your destructions

 

[KeithJG]

I would hope you were charged for the Star readout otherwise your indy is bending you over.
£58+vat to change a battery!

Just had a look at the receipt again and that was under Unit Price?...the Net Amt was 23.80+4.76vat=28.56 for fitting but that included not connecting another battery before disconnection but resetting all and checking things after.
So not just a straightforward undo and do up!

The battery was 94.40+18.88 Total inc fitting was 141.84.

 

[EmilysDad]

..... but resetting all and checking things after. ....

all windows & possibly a roof?

 

[Steve@Avantgarde]

In the days we have now of electricity and control modules running everything with multiple sensors monitoring systems and networking them together with CAN and LIN Bus communication, a fool would only guess at a particular breakdown or warning light.

In fact, the majority of posts on here contain the wording of, ive got X warning light on, Ive replaced components A, B and C and its still showing, please help. All because the diagnostic proceedures are ignored and component replacement is considered as testing and diagnosing. You cant proceed on any form of diagnosis without plugging it on STAR.

Mechanical issues like your suspension for example can be diagnosed with out STAR, but it was a best guess and nothing more. If it had come to me I would have plugged it in and used STAR to actuate components like compressors, valve blocks and ride height control sensors.

STAR has functions called actual values where you have spec data and cross reference it with live data. It confirms what you "believe the fault to be".

Case in point is a thread on the mechanical page about a loss in power, the guy has decatted it, done all sorts, but has never heard of a charge pressure test, and when he scanned it on a generic scanner, he saw some values but didnt know what he was looking at or what spec values should be so ignored them and carried on regardless. STAR can tell you all of that and so much more. Its a tool, not just a fault code reader and in the hands of a capable technician, you wont fail to fix anything. Electrical or mechanical.

 

[C350Carl]

I must admit I have found STAR as a system to purchase ludicrously expensive. Also a ridiculous setup in needing a seperate computer and daft cables.

I have VCDS (now ODIS) for VAG group cars. I can read codes and do specific coding that any dealer can do on any of the 4 main VAG marques from 1993 onwards.

The cost to me for this was £285 for a Hex-Can cable from Ross-Tech. This is OBD plug one end and USB the other.

The software then runs on my laptop and is around a couple of hundred mb in size.

When I say you can do anything a dealer can I do mean anything. Often more and I've helped dealers out in the past when they've been unable to code something.

So if it can be done legitimately and legally for VAG cars (bear in mind this includes the likes of V10 R8's, S8's etc which are not cheap cars) then I don't see why the MB system is so much or so out of touch with modern computing.

Ross-Tech even have dedicated support to help people out. They have there own Wiki which details fault codes and related potential causes. If you buy a second hand cable you pay them £99 one off payment and you then get access to the support.

I do think Mercedes make a lot of what they do over complicated. This no doubt causes headaches for main dealers and Indy's alike.

Costing a lot of the time is purely 'Mercedes Tax' but it's not unique to them. Other so called prestige brands can be just as bad.

 

[turbopete]

I must admit I have found STAR as a system to purchase ludicrously expensive. Also a ridiculous setup in needing a seperate computer and daft cables.

I have VCDS (now ODIS) for VAG group cars. I can read codes and do specific coding that any dealer can do on any of the 4 main VAG marques from 1993 onwards.

The cost to me for this was £285 for a Hex-Can cable from Ross-Tech. This is OBD plug one end and USB the other.

The software then runs on my laptop and is around a couple of hundred mb in size.

When I say you can do anything a dealer can I do mean anything. Often more and I've helped dealers out in the past when they've been unable to code something.

So if it can be done legitimately and legally for VAG cars (bear in mind this includes the likes of V10 R8's, S8's etc which are not cheap cars) then I don't see why the MB system is so much or so out of touch with modern computing.

agreed. not used the system myself but seen it and similar systems. theres a FORD system out that will even code items to your car using a modified ELM327 cable that can be bought for £20 or so on Ebay! it makes the MB connection system look positively stone age in comparison!

I do think Mercedes make a lot of what they do over complicated. This no doubt causes headaches for main dealers and Indy's alike.

again, i totally agree and is probably among the reasons that MB dealers cant fix the cars properly. too much complication for the sake of it, techs trying to keep bills low for fleet customers, faults arent fixed right first time, etc. or the dealers are just too expensive for customers with older cars.
the thing always was that MB made cars for ENTHUSIASTS when the time came that they were no longer deemed worth any real monetary value. a few years ago, if you wanted a bargain £1k runabout, you bought a 20 year old 190 instead of a 10 year old escort. i think the days of current cars becoming classics or even cherished are numbered, if they havent already gone

 

[PovertySpec]

CARLY for Mercedes?

http://www.mycarly.com/product/mercedes-app/

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.iViNi.DrMercedesLite&hl=en_GB

Anyone using it and if so is it any good?

Obviously, it's not STAR, but does it produce more detail than generic OBD apps?

 

[Rappey69]

Star may cost around 11k, but there are many other tools/machinery within a garage that cost one hell of a lot more (such as ramps? 4 post etc) but these are tools and the motorist does not pay a fee as such for each item that has been used, so how did diagnosis become an extra when it is really just another tool?

 

[turbopete]

Star may cost around 11k, but there are many other tools/machinery within a garage that cost one hell of a lot more (such as ramps? 4 post etc) but these are tools and the motorist does not pay a fee as such for each item that has been used, so how did diagnosis become an extra when it is really just another tool?

ramps must have gone up a lot recently. las time i priced them you could get 4 posters for about £3k and 2 post for about £2k-ish

 

[Rotorhead500]

Would you prefer, visit a clairvoyant for a crystal ball check sir.....??

I may as well with the other half's Volvo recently. :lol:

I pointed them in the direction of the rear axle, and what sounded like a dragging wheel due to duff diff (a nasty condition!)

Diagnostics show nothing wrong; I once again describe what feels like a wheel dragging due to a locked diff and they fixed that (apparently there was a Technical Bulletin for the fault!), but they failed to realise that the dragging was still present during their subsequent "test drive"... Even after I enquired at Step 2 as to whether the oil feed issue could've damaged any hardwear in the axle or driveline itself... I get "Oh no Sir, all fine".

Car is currently with them awaiting a new All Wheel Drive Unit! (Which I assume is the Haldex clutch.

Apparently none of their master techs could use a bit of common noggin!

As has been said above, STAR (change name accordingly) is only as good as the person interpreting it... And that's where experience & attitude comes in. And unfortunately, that ain't free!

But I do think MB take the peece!

 

[television]

All of these code readers only do the running gear and nothing on the body at all. The readers that can do the whole car all cost £££££. I have tested about 100 cars on STAR, and never one for engine or running gear, that is ABS etc.

If someone wants a STAR read out why should they not pay, no one will let you use the car lifts for your own interest.

 

[turbopete]

All of these code readers only do the running gear and nothing on the body at all. The readers that can do the whole car all cost £££££. I have tested about 100 cars on STAR, and never one for engine or running gear, that is ABS etc.

If someone wants a STAR read out why should they not pay, no one will let you use the car lifts for your own interest.

delphi clone for under £50 will access all body modules Malcolm. perhaps not as comprehensively as STAR on MBs but ive cleared airbag codes from Iveco Dailys, ran all kinds of tests on the 203 just to play with the system, it will on the works vans even shut off 1 cylinder at a time to help find misfires on common rail engines etc, as well as drive ABS pumps for bleeding brakes etc.

 

[Cole@MBS]

Not interested in reading 70 posts on this subject so if I'm out of line here then say but........we paid something like £16000, yes £16000 for our Merc star machine from Merc, and something like £400 a month, could be slightly out there for the licensing side of it, thats a lot of money a small company like us has to get back before it makes us money.......needless to say, we make a loss everytime time we use it.....

 

[television]

delphi clone for under £50 will access all body modules Malcolm. perhaps not as comprehensively as STAR on MBs but ive cleared airbag codes from Iveco Dailys, ran all kinds of tests on the 203 just to play with the system, it will on the works vans even shut off 1 cylinder at a time to help find misfires on common rail engines etc, as well as drive ABS pumps for bleeding brakes etc.

They cannot do the whole car

 

[turbopete]

They cannot do the whole car

they have accessed everything ive tried so far. abs, airbags, dash, engine, abd has sections for checking heater etc (thats how i found which motors were iffy in the dash of the 203) and i realise MB have other sub systems that it may not do.

i do feel that it (or something similar) is more than adequate for most people on most cars though.

 

[television]

they have accessed everything ive tried so far. abs, airbags, dash, engine, abd has sections for checking heater etc (thats how i found which motors were iffy in the dash of the 203) and i realise MB have other sub systems that it may not do.

i do feel that it (or something similar) is more than adequate for most people on most cars though.

If you say so Pete.

 

[turbopete]

If you say so Pete.

its not a case of what i say Malcolm, it is what ive used the machine to do. my 203 has NEVER been connected to STAR outside of its 3 year from new warranty. how else could i have found out which motors were clicking on the heater flaps without removing the dash? this isnt a hand held plug in job this connects to a laptop and although the system we have at work is a clone, they are used as main systems in Garages all over the country and beyond, much like the Snap on systems etc (and the old Carsoft systems that were very popular on older models)

these give an idea of capabilities

http://europe.delphi-dso.com/uk/downloads/DELPHI_DS150E_SS_AW.pdf

and

http://www.obd2sale.com/goods-120-D...0E+CDP+Pro+Without+Bluetooth+with+keygen.html

we have both car and heavy software like these

https://www.hickleys.com/diagnostics/delphids150.php

 

[television]

its not a case of what i say Malcolm, it is what ive used the machine to do. my 203 has NEVER been connected to STAR outside of its 3 year from new warranty. how else could i have found out which motors were clicking on the heater flaps without removing the dash? this isnt a hand held plug in job this connects to a laptop and although the system we have at work is a clone, they are used as main systems in Garages all over the country and beyond, much like the Snap on systems etc (and the old Carsoft systems that were very popular on older models)

these give an idea of capabilities

http://europe.delphi-dso.com/uk/downloads/DELPHI_DS150E_SS_AW.pdf

and

http://www.obd2sale.com/goods-120-D...0E+CDP+Pro+Without+Bluetooth+with+keygen.html

we have both car and heavy software like these

https://www.hickleys.com/diagnostics/delphids150.php

In the 100 Mercedes cars that I have needed diagnostics, not one of those covers the faults that I deal with.