Time to end the Great Diag Rip-Off

[Steve@Avantgarde]

Its easy to get hung up on diagnosis and fault reading.
From my perspective if I ask to have the fault codes read I would expect a reasonable charge - say 15 minutes labour plus some contribution to the cost of equipment.
So for STAR I would say its reasonable to expect to pay up to £50.
I would only expect a list of fault codes found.

Diagnosis is a much bigger thing and can involve significant time. A small part of diagnosis is the STAR code readings. Therefore for diagnosis I would expect full hourly whack but nothing extra for STAR as thats just a tool for the overall job (just as a ramp and socket set aren't charged for separately).
From diagnosis I would expect a detailed analysis of whats wrong, which parts and an estimate of cost with an expectation that the diagnosis is correct.

Which is exactly the difference between a STAR test and diagnosis.

 

[turbopete]

Which is exactly the difference between a STAR test and diagnosis.

id imagine that the 'test' would be literally the code reading side of it, nothing else, whereas diagnosis would be to go deeper than just the codes.

 

[television]

Its easy to get hung up on diagnosis and fault reading.
From my perspective if I ask to have the fault codes read I would expect a reasonable charge - say 15 minutes labour plus some contribution to the cost of equipment.
So for STAR I would say its reasonable to expect to pay up to £50.
I would only expect a list of fault codes found.

Diagnosis is a much bigger thing and can involve significant time. A small part of diagnosis is the STAR code readings. Therefore for diagnosis I would expect full hourly whack but nothing extra for STAR as thats just a tool for the overall job (just as a ramp and socket set aren't charged for separately).
From diagnosis I would expect a detailed analysis of whats wrong, which parts and an estimate of cost with an expectation that the diagnosis is correct.

Then lets say that you had a 230 and it went on STAR for a suspension fault.

STAR says "front right level sensor " at fault, so you go away happy and buy a new sensor only to find that the fault it still there. How would you feel.

Again a 230 your massaging seats are not working, so the car goes on STAR where STAR says "leak in drivers seat bladder" So you pull the seat apart and blow the bladders up and no leaks at all. How would you feel, and whose fault in these 2 cases for example.

 

[C350Carl]

The way I see it.

Diagnosis (i.e. getting a list of fault codes only) should be free as it takes at most a couple of minutes to do.

If you're coding or rectifying the fault etc then it should be a flat labour rate of however much per hour.

Whilst I accept it costs a lot to purchase and maintain STAR. It is a tool that is required for the job and garages take a LOT of money to kit themselves out properly. Be it Main Stealer or Specialist Indy. STAR is just part of the required tool set.

 

[ajlsl600]

mb/classics

agreed. not used the system myself but seen it and similar systems. theres a FORD system out that will even code items to your car using a modified ELM327 cable that can be bought for £20 or so on Ebay! it makes the MB connection system look positively stone age in comparison!



again, i totally agree and is probably among the reasons that MB dealers cant fix the cars properly. too much complication for the sake of it, techs trying to keep bills low for fleet customers, faults arent fixed right first time, etc. or the dealers are just too expensive for customers with older cars.
the thing always was that MB made cars for ENTHUSIASTS when the time came that they were no longer deemed worth any real monetary value. a few years ago, if you wanted a bargain £1k runabout, you bought a 20 year old 190 instead of a 10 year old escort. i think the days of current cars becoming classics or even cherished are numbered, if they havent already gone

sadly, believe yr right , think my clk might make a cheap classic, but believe all the electronics ,hydralics will prevent my sl becoming one there will just be no parts avail at prices that make it worthwhile . will we ever or my kids ever see a 35 yr old sl500/600 running about ? static display maybe .

 

[television]

The way I see it.

Diagnosis (i.e. getting a list of fault codes only) should be free as it takes at most a couple of minutes to do.

If you're coding or rectifying the fault etc then it should be a flat labour rate of however much per hour.

Whilst I accept it costs a lot to purchase and maintain STAR. It is a tool that is required for the job and garages take a LOT of money to kit themselves out properly. Be it Main Stealer or Specialist Indy. STAR is just part of the required tool set.

Who should do it free

 

[Craiglxviii]

Everyone in a deep socialist state?

 

[C350Carl]

Who should do it free

Sorry I didn't mean free as in rock up at a garage and get a list of faults and bugger off elsewhere. Should have explained it better.

If it's a case of get a list of faults, see fault, part is replaced or fault rectified (and involves no other interaction with STAR other than the initial fault code list). Then the use of STAR/Diagnostic machine should be free. The only charge would be for the parts and labour in the rectification of the problem.

If however a part is replaced, car needs to be coded. Then that use of STAR/ Diagnostic Machine should be based on an hourly rate of labour.

So for example. If the labour rate is £60/hr & coding takes 10mins. Then the owner should be charged no more than £10 for the use of the STAR machine.

 

[Frontstep]

In a Socialist state people will want paying to watch

Unless I was a regular I wouldn't expect an expensive piece of kit to be run over my car for free, even then I would expect to pay something especially if they weren't going to do further work if only a gratuity for the person doing it.

 

[television]

Sorry I didn't mean free as in rock up at a garage and get a list of faults and bugger off elsewhere. Should have explained it better.

If it's a case of get a list of faults, see fault, part is replaced or fault rectified (and involves no other interaction with STAR other than the initial fault code list). Then the use of STAR/Diagnostic machine should be free. The only charge would be for the parts and labour in the rectification of the problem.

If however a part is replaced, car needs to be coded. Then that use of STAR/ Diagnostic Machine should be based on an hourly rate of labour.

So for example. If the labour rate is £60/hr & coding takes 10mins. Then the owner should be charged no more than £10 for the use of the STAR machine.

There are 2 parts to this.
First if the car owner has taken the car in for repair, the use of STAR is not really part of this as it will be an all in repair. The Garage will have used STAR if needed to aid that repair if it was required. Very few itemize that STAR has been used, some may itemize it to try and make the bill look longer.

I have been in the service industry since 1951 and customers that new more than me were always the biggest time wasters going, they would fish for information so that they could do it themselves. Sure nothing wrong with this at all if you can fix the thing without troubling anyone else, as this is what the forum tries to do.

So with cars that have been taken it to get the codes read. The ½ hour that many charge must apply for you would be hard pressed to do it all under ½ hour.

The customer arrives, you have to stop what you are doing, say hello etc and make room for this car. Join it up to STAR and do a print out, 99 times out of a 100 that customer will ask question on the recorded faults, and what he can do to fix it. By the time an invoice has been raised and printed that ½ hour will soon pass.

In post 103 I put up two cases where the read out on STAR will have nothing much to do with the actual fault, and there are loads more, the customer will not know this so should the garage point this out, it might be a true fault in some cases, but not all.
The garage can get themselves a bad name as the customer goes away, changes that itemized part and the car still the same.

Life over the past 10 years has changed dramatically.

Once I could do my own house electrics.
Once I could do my own Gas.
Once I could fit my own windows.
Once I could fix most faults on a car.

 

[SL63 Mark]

I would be happy to pay for diagnosis alone. However, my dealership would not just do that. They would want me to leave the car with them so they could find/fix a fault. So my recent current drain for example. (I never took it in, as the car healed itself)

Maybe some indies shoot themselves in the foot by being too helpful/friendly. The dealers plonk you in an armchair with a coffee, and you can look through the glass. Better still, they give you a loan car and tell you to come back later.

They have strict rules about allowing customers in the workshop, I wouldn't even ask.

 

[television]

.

They have strict rules about allowing customers in the workshop, I wouldn't even ask.

I am allowed in when they want to know something from me

 

[SL63 Mark]

I am allowed in when they want to know something from me

Yes, I look like trouble, so they keep me well away.

 

[C350Carl]

There are 2 parts to this.

First if the car owner has taken the car in for repair, the use of STAR is not really part of this as it will be an all in repair. The Garage will have used STAR if needed to aid that repair if it was required. Very few itemize that STAR has been used, some may itemize it to try and make the bill look longer.



I have been in the service industry since 1951 and customers that new more than me were always the biggest time wasters going, they would fish for information so that they could do it themselves. Sure nothing wrong with this at all if you can fix the thing without troubling anyone else, as this is what the forum tries to do.



So with cars that have been taken it to get the codes read. The ½ hour that many charge must apply for you would be hard pressed to do it all under ½ hour.



The customer arrives, you have to stop what you are doing, say hello etc and make room for this car. Join it up to STAR and do a print out, 99 times out of a 100 that customer will ask question on the recorded faults, and what he can do to fix it. By the time an invoice has been raised and printed that ½ hour will soon pass.



In post 103 I put up two cases where the read out on STAR will have nothing much to do with the actual fault, and there are loads more, the customer will not know this so should the garage point this out, it might be a true fault in some cases, but not all.

The garage can get themselves a bad name as the customer goes away, changes that itemized part and the car still the same.



Life over the past 10 years has changed dramatically.



Once I could do my own house electrics.

Once I could do my own Gas.

Once I could fit my own windows.

Once I could fix most faults on a car.

Malcolm, my point was that if the only thing STAR is used for is to see the 'fault' and nothing else then it shouldn't be charged for. They are still making money at an astronomical rate (in the case of a main dealer with their £100+/hr labour charge).

I wish I got paid £100+/hr!

I'm not saying that STAR shouldn't be charged for. If it's used to do coding etc then yes charge for it. But it should only be a labour rate charge and nothing else. There shouldn't be a specific charge just because a specialist tool is required. The garage has to have to specialist tool to function as they do with their specialist spanners, ratchets etc. So it's incorporated into their day to day running costs and labour charges.

Unless of course the customer wants to know the fault and nothing else done to the car. Then yes charge for it.

But very few garages (talking main dealers) will drop what they're doing for a random customer and put the car on the machine. It has to be booked in.

Granted some Indy's do and some main dealers do for well known customers.

I don't know the ins and outs of how STAR works. But it must be the worst diagnostic system in history if it can't scan the car via the OBD and give a read out of every fault code in less than 5mins.

 

[television]

Malcolm, my point was that if the only thing STAR is used for is to see the 'fault' and nothing else then it shouldn't be charged for. They are still making money at an astronomical rate (in the case of a main dealer with their £100+/hr labour charge).

I wish I got paid £100+/hr!

I'm not saying that STAR shouldn't be charged for. If it's used to do coding etc then yes charge for it. But it should only be a labour rate charge and nothing else. There shouldn't be a specific charge just because a specialist tool is required. The garage has to have to specialist tool to function as they do with their specialist spanners, ratchets etc. So it's incorporated into their day to day running costs and labour charges.

Unless of course the customer wants to know the fault and nothing else done to the car. Then yes charge for it.

But very few garages (talking main dealers) will drop what they're doing for a random customer and put the car on the machine. It has to be booked in.

Granted some Indy's do and some main dealers do for well known customers.

I don't know the ins and outs of how STAR works. But it must be the worst diagnostic system in history if it can't scan the car via the OBD and give a read out of every fault code in less than 5mins.

I think that this thread need sorting a bit, is this about Mercedes dealers or indies, as their interest are not the same.

 

[Frontstep]

There are 2 parts to this.
First if the car owner has taken the car in for repair, the use of STAR is not really part of this as it will be an all in repair. The Garage will have used STAR if needed to aid that repair if it was required. Very few itemize that STAR has been used, some may itemize it to try and make the bill look longer.

I have been in the service industry since 1951 and customers that new more than me were always the biggest time wasters going, they would fish for information so that they could do it themselves. Sure nothing wrong with this at all if you can fix the thing without troubling anyone else, as this is what the forum tries to do.

So with cars that have been taken it to get the codes read. The ½ hour that many charge must apply for you would be hard pressed to do it all under ½ hour.

The customer arrives, you have to stop what you are doing, say hello etc and make room for this car. Join it up to STAR and do a print out, 99 times out of a 100 that customer will ask question on the recorded faults, and what he can do to fix it. By the time an invoice has been raised and printed that ½ hour will soon pass.

In post 103 I put up two cases where the read out on STAR will have nothing much to do with the actual fault, and there are loads more, the customer will not know this so should the garage point this out, it might be a true fault in some cases, but not all.
The garage can get themselves a bad name as the customer goes away, changes that itemized part and the car still the same.

Life over the past 10 years has changed dramatically.

Once I could do my own house electrics.
Once I could do my own Gas.
Once I could fit my own windows.
Once I could fix most faults on a car.

You still can, you just get a piece of paper for when someone else needs it

 

[Alfie]

.....................................................................They are still making money at an astronomical rate (in the case of a main dealer with their £100+/hr labour charge).

I wish I got paid £100+/hr!

Its not an astronomical rate when you look at the overheads they have. You have the choice to go to an independent with a lower labour rate. If you go to a good (private)Doctor, dentist, solicitor etc you will be relieved of more than £100/hr! go to a decent Lawyer and you are looking at £500/hr. £100/hr isnt a high rate these days.

I don't know the ins and outs of how STAR works. But it must be the worst diagnostic system in history if it can't scan the car via the OBD and give a read out of every fault code in less than 5mins.

It does do this but this scenario only looks at the connection time to the STAR. In our workshop for instance the new Tab 2 system we have takes around 10 minutes to boot up the MUX and the PC it pairs with. Its then about 5 minutes to go through the checks that STAR performs on the vehicle and then run the quick test.

All workshops and especially main dealers have overheads and its a simple business principle that to stay in business those overheads must be met, people paid and a little profit made. If you want to sit in a nice leather arm chair drinking coffee and eating biscuits whilst watching the TV in a main dealer then this has to be paid for somewhere, just as when they come and collect your car and then deliver it back. All that needs to be paid for.

We charge for a diagnosis session which includes a quick test printout if we need to do one in order to diagnose the problem. The customer is paying for our experience and ability to produce that diagnosis. We dont have leather chairs, TV or coffee. We suggest the customer goes to the nice coffee shop over the road and they can then spend as much as they like on refreshments etc.

As we live in a free society, if someone doesnt like the charges then they are free to go elsewhere. This is why we have some excellent independents around.

 

[turbopete]

just as a matter of interest, im aware that the software etc all has to be written/built/whatever you do with them, BUT if we were to take STAR, or any other diagnostic tool with a similar set-up (PC/Tablet, MUX etc) as just the bare system, no software, and take them to component level, how much are they REALLY worth?

id guess not much in real terms. the figure of £16k + subscription has been mentioned for the current model, and as yet there seem to be no clones available (regardless of whether they work or not)

i heard a rumour that the previous version (offline) was £12k+ and if it were genuinely WORTH that, then the clones wouldnt be kicking around for a couple of hundred quid

now im not saying that the clones were always of equal quality BUT you could buy a laptop/tablet, clone MUX and clone software for under £1k easily so SURELY the BIGGEST rip-off where diagnostics are concerned ARENT the garages, but the MANUFACTURERS for charging into the teens of £k's for tools that probably cost no more that £1500 to produce, assuming the clones are sold at cost and the real deal is £500 BETTER through better quality components!

 

[C350Carl]

Its not an astronomical rate when you look at the overheads they have. You have the choice to go to an independent with a lower labour rate. If you go to a good (private)Doctor, dentist, solicitor etc you will be relieved of more than £100/hr! go to a decent Lawyer and you are looking at £500/hr. £100/hr isnt a high rate these days.

Don't dispute they have overheads. £100/hr is a lot of money just for someone's time.

Yes doctors and lawyers charge similar or more as you've pointed out. But their fields (especially a doctor) are different and lawyers generally don't have specialist tools apart from their brain.

It does do this but this scenario only looks at the connection time to the STAR. In our workshop for instance the new Tab 2 system we have takes around 10 minutes to boot up the MUX and the PC it pairs with. Its then about 5 minutes to go through the checks that STAR performs on the vehicle and then run the quick test.

Surely the startup procedure is done when the first technician arrives for the day?

I can't make my point any clearer. I understand all of the points raised for the diagnostic charge and I've said when I agree with it.

However the main point is this. It should be a standard labour rate charge (or portion of as applicable)

The fact any garage has overheads is neither here nor there.


It's all (or should be) factored into the cost of the labour rate. Otherwise what do they do if they get a few old cars to work on one week? Or faults that don't require any diagnostic checks at all? Do they then charge the customers the week after that need diagnostics as part of their repair extra?

The other way to look at it is that for arguments sake the garage has 2 bays to work on cars. They work out that to recover their overheads and make some profit they charge £100/hr. Work starts at 0800 and finishes at 1800 daily. They employ 2 technicians who have 2 hrs total break (2 x 30mins breaks & 1hr lunch). This means that those two bays will recoup them at most £800 each at £100/hr.

Why does it matter what tool is used during the time the car is in the garage? If the total time of work is 2hrs. Then it's £200 plus parts. If 30mins of that is use of star then it should only be billed as 30mins of labour.

Hope that makes sense and I've kept the figures simple for illustration only.

 

[Frontstep]

£100+ PH is a lot of money and for working on cars its ludicrous.

These prices though do allow many an independent to open in competition and make a good living charging 1/2 the amount.
I can get work done on my car for £30 PH plus vat by very competent people.
I can get time served tradesmen in many other areas who are very happy to get £600-£800PW gross.
They are always busy, if I want to go the migrant route then a very long queue will form very quickly for those rates.


http://www.tradingeconomics.com/poland/wages