Time to end the Great Diag Rip-Off

[_Taz_]

I suppose looking at it from all angles, the only real positive is that people share info more readily...

hence, there are TONS of VERY good auto forums dedicated to diagnostics...

Without these & to be honest, a lot of the professionals use them too, we'd all be in the dark ages with the dealers charging whatever they want.

Like it or not, I'm glad people attempt to do the work themselves, as this keeps the market forces in check...

The dealers are aware of this & hence why a good indie will always have a devoted queue of customers, providing they don't get too flash & forget the customer can always go elsewhere !

As for the cost of STAR, or whatever you want to call it now, it's well over priced, but then again, Mercedes wants to outdo the competition with the "best or nothing" approach...

usually it's not a lot lol...

I find the fault finding aspect a challenge as an engineer & once you strip back all the bells & whistles it's a very functional setup, but again does require some dedicated studying !

HTH

 

[Alfie]

£100+ PH is a lot of money and for working on cars its ludicrous.

In your opinion, yes it is.

The Mercedes workshop bays at dealers in our area are pretty much full every day. So this would suggest that a lot of people are happy to pay these rates. Some will be disgruntled but if people felt that strongly they wouldnt use them and the bays would be empty.

One dealer not far away from us charges nearly £200/hr labour. Their workshop is full.

I take my cars to Mercedes Benz of Guildford. I always ask for a price before they do the service. My last B service on the A class was £270 all in parts, labour, MOT and VAT. Im very happy with that especially as I could sit in their nice lounge area reading the paper and drinking coffee for three hours. Nice jaffa cakes too

 

[V6Matty]

Nice jaffa cakes too

would only be worth it if they had chocolate hobnobs

 

[Naraic]

Malcolm, my point was that if the only thing STAR is used for is to see the 'fault' and nothing else then it shouldn't be charged for. They are still making money at an astronomical rate (in the case of a main dealer with their £100+/hr labour charge).

I wish I got paid £100+/hr!

I'm not saying that STAR shouldn't be charged for. If it's used to do coding etc then yes charge for it. But it should only be a labour rate charge and nothing else. There shouldn't be a specific charge just because a specialist tool is required. The garage has to have to specialist tool to function as they do with their specialist spanners, ratchets etc. So it's incorporated into their day to day running costs and labour charges.

Unless of course the customer wants to know the fault and nothing else done to the car. Then yes charge for it.

But very few garages (talking main dealers) will drop what they're doing for a random customer and put the car on the machine. It has to be booked in.

Granted some Indy's do and some main dealers do for well known customers.

I don't know the ins and outs of how STAR works. But it must be the worst diagnostic system in history if it can't scan the car via the OBD and give a read out of every fault code in less than 5mins.

You may not get paid £100 per hour, but I suspect the cost of having you as an employee costs more than £100 per hour considering all the costs associated with your "business".

 

[KeithJG]

The thing is if STAR did not exist the labour charge would not be £100ph !

STAR enables a problem to be fixed proto (if your lucky) so therefore the garage has to pay for the privilege of having STAR and also the customer is on his way quicker.....if the labour charge was less then it would probably take longer and more expensive to fix without STAR.

I know nothing of these complicated money earning modern motors but i do believe STAR is not just an error code reader like my Android mobile is!

I have been to my indy who works on gearboxes and he was going to fit the new electroplate he had just bought to fit on my motor as the error code was P2201 Speed Sensors faulty.

When i arrived at his garage he connected to STAR and i was in the reception as not allowed in the working area. After 30 mins he called me out to the car and he said well there is the readout and he said although the speed sensors are faulty replacing with just the electroplate will not fix the problem as the valve block will make them go faulty again so i was in for a new valve block which by the way has a new electroplate included on it. I believe what he said as also i could read it on STAR myself. Also he already had bought the electroplate to fit and his labour would probably be no more to fit the whole valve block unit?

Before going to see about the box problem Googling around was a complete waste of time as these error codes are only used for certain models or years of models and also have different meanings for others like i found O2 sensor readings out of range or NOx sensor circuit range ...i didn`t believe that one as i have not long had a new one fitted...lol

So i don`t mind being charged for a STAR readout as long as the chap reading it is competent at it!

 

[Alfie]

would only be worth it if they had chocolate hobnobs

They do have hobnobs but i'm uncertain if they are of the chocolate variety! I will take a look next time i'm over there I guess my service was better value for me as I can, if in the right mood, consume a lot of chocolate biscuits, particularly jaffa cakes! Its a bit awkward that they have them in those packs of three.

 

[Frontstep]

In your opinion, yes it is.

The Mercedes workshop bays at dealers in our area are pretty much full every day. So this would suggest that a lot of people are happy to pay these rates. Some will be disgruntled but if people felt that strongly they wouldnt use them and the bays would be empty.

One dealer not far away from us charges nearly £200/hr labour. Their workshop is full.

I take my cars to Mercedes Benz of Guildford. I always ask for a price before they do the service. My last B service on the A class was £270 all in parts, labour, MOT and VAT. Im very happy with that especially as I could sit in their nice lounge area reading the paper and drinking coffee for three hours. Nice jaffa cakes too

It could only ever be my and perhaps a few others opinion.

Anyone who is "happy" to pay those prices needs a few lessons in value judgements.
There are of course many reasons people use these workshops and the overwhelming majority will be tied because of warranty and lease requirements.
I should make clear I use an MB Agent because of the former.

 

[SL63 Mark]

It could only ever be my and perhaps a few others opinion.

Anyone who is "happy" to pay those prices needs a few lessons in value judgements.

To be honest if you can afford £50k for a car (and many people can) then £100 an hour labour charge is peanuts.

 

[Frontstep]

I can but £100ph hour is still a lot for car maintenance.

 

[television]

I can but £100ph hour is still a lot for car maintenance.

Yes it is the most unkind thing that car makes can do, long may the indie reign.

 

[EmilysDad]

... long may the indie reign.

depends whether the indie charges you for 4 hours labour at £50(?) per hour to do a job when MB quote the labour as 1.4 hours :-| and then argue that it's impossible to do in that time. And to cap it off leave you with a fuel leak cos they re-used the old 'O' ring and say that it was nothing to do with them & argue that the car has been over filled. I fixed the fuel leak myself with a new 'O' ring.

Another indie ..... I phone MB for a price to change a water pump which came back at £330. When the indie phoned back with his quote I told him what he had to quote against. His reply was that he 'was double that'. I did it myself using an OE pump, it took me a couple of hours .... sat on the floor cross legged with the car on ramps. It'd been a piece of cake if the car had been on ramps & I'd done one before.

 

[Cole@MBS]

Well one thing is for sure, this must be the longest ( introduce yourself ) thread ever!!!!!

 

[television]

Well one thing is for sure, this must be the longest ( introduce yourself ) thread ever!!!!!

We are trying to get all mercedes owners to come to their senses and only use indies

 

[KeithJG]

But then surely parts prices will increase for MB to get there money.

It is a no win situation.

 

[MercSLK]

I wasn't going to get involved in this one...........

I used to be a car mechanic before I went off and did other things. I worked for a Ford dealer. One of the problems we had was that we tended to mainly see only the complicated, difficult or involved and time consuming jobs. These jobs ended up being more expensive because of their nature and also because the charges had to reflect the cost of running the workshop and paying the staff.

On cars there are a lot of 'bread and butter' jobs...you know the ones; oil and filter changes, brake disc and pad renewal, exhaust system renewal, tyre renewal and so on. These are the jobs that allow garage workshops to live on a day to day basis. So when the more involved or specialised jobs used to come in they are the exception rather the rule and will be charged at the same rate as bread and butter jobs and may in fact be slightly subsidised by them.

Problem was/is dealer workshops rarely see routine work. Routine servicing is often done as 'homers' by the very mechanics who work for the dealers dealers themselves. Independent garages will do the straightforward stuff like brake work and the like and are able to 'cherry pick', exhaust and tyre specialists do the easy tyre and exhaust work and so on. The dealers tend to get landed with the jobs that no-one else wants to or is unable to tackle. These jobs take longer anyway so the bill is higher which reinforces the owners view that the dealers are rip off merchants.

There are of course very, very good independents about and you all know who you are (Steve, Star et al) who take the rough with the smooth and run a very professional operation and may be considered fair competition but there are a lot out there who simply, as I've mentioned 'cherry pick'.

At this point I hold up my own hand, I do all my own routine servicing, brake work, suspension and running gear and electrics. I sometimes work with an old friend who runs an independent garage and in return he lets me use his ramp to do work.on my own car which requires the use of a ramp. This is good for both of us as he gets free labour and I keep my hand in. However when I needed the gearbox of my SLK serviced and the fluid renewed, I went to the dealer who incidentally did the work for a very decent price.

On the original subject of the STAR diagnosis being charged out, my thoughts are as follows:

If someone simply wants a STAR readout then charge them for that at the correct rate. If someone brings their car in for repair and the process of that repair involves the use of the STAR system then don't charge it out at a fixed 'charge for STAR diagnosis'. After all, as has been pointed out, it is a part of the general arsenal of tools you need to repair modern cars. If you are going to do this why not separately charge out all the other specialist tools you need/use.

Charge for use of:

Torque wrench
Camshaft locking tool
Air powered wrench.
3/4" square drive breaker bar
Ball joint splitter
Compressor
Etc.......

Just my 2p worth

MercSLK

 

[MercSLK]

Once I could do my own house electrics.

Why don't you do your own house electrics anymore Malcolm? I do all my own house electrics. I wouldn't trust some of the absolute cowboys I've seen doing domestic electrics..."It's yer consumer unit mate. Yer need a noow one. That'll be £500 quid." Yeh, right!

MercSLK

 

[Naraic]

Why don't you do your own house electrics anymore Malcolm? I do all my own house electrics. I wouldn't trust some of the absolute cowboys I've seen doing domestic electrics..."It's yer consumer unit mate. Yer need a noow one. That'll be £500 quid." Yeh, right!

MercSLK

...because the rules have changed and it's illegal to do home electrics in bathrooms and *******s without the correct certificates.

 

[Frontstep]

Why don't you do your own house electrics anymore Malcolm? I do all my own house electrics. I wouldn't trust some of the absolute cowboys I've seen doing domestic electrics..."It's yer consumer unit mate. Yer need a noow one. That'll be £500 quid." Yeh, right!

MercSLK

Your right you can always have a "periodic" done as a check if someone wants a piece of paper.

 

[SL63 Mark]

...because the rules have changed and it's illegal to do home electrics in bathrooms and *******s without the correct certificates.

and the electrician has to be "Part P qualified" or something like that. We found that out when wiring our garage.

 

[television]

Why don't you do your own house electrics anymore Malcolm? I do all my own house electrics. I wouldn't trust some of the absolute cowboys I've seen doing domestic electrics..."It's yer consumer unit mate. Yer need a noow one. That'll be £500 quid." Yeh, right!

MercSLK

I do, I have been doing it all morning , but I cannot tell that when I sell the house.