Time to end the Great Diag Rip-Off

[ALFIEBEARD]

they have accessed everything ive tried so far. abs, airbags, dash, engine, abd has sections for checking heater etc (thats how i found which motors were iffy in the dash of the 203) and i realise MB have other sub systems that it may not do.

i do feel that it (or something similar) is more than adequate for most people on most cars though.

I have a Delphi 150E Pete and agree its brilliant I have read the fault codes on dozens of different car/vans and Trucks and have never had a car yet that it hasn't read. as you say it can do virtually everything other more expensive readers can inc airbags dash etc.

Alfie

 

[C350Carl]

Do the Delphi's allow you to code the car? Or are they purely a fault diagnostic and reset tool?

Just curious as to the capability compared with VCDS for VAG.

For example VCDS will allow you to code things to the car that aren't necessarily done from the factory.

For example on some Audi's they charge you £185 for TPMS (where it tells you the pressures) and then £185 for hill hold assist. (Prices may have changed)

However if you just specified TPMS then VCDS would be able to code HHA as it used the same control module to do so. Therefore saving the owner £185.

Another example is needle sweep. You could enable the needles to sweep all the way round and back again on ignition start up.

You could change the comfort indicator from 1-5 blinks etc.

Is this the sort of thing the Delphi will do?

 

[turbopete]

at no point did i say it covered every fault. i said it will access more than the usual engine only fault codes , which was the reason i brought the system up. unlike most of the hand held systems this one WILL pull coses from ABS systems, or aircon/heater systems, gearbox codes, etc. and if we were to be 100% blunt about it, the STAR system would have been less than useless if you had ever had issues with the Volvo you had!

the system i use isnt the be all and end all but as they can be picked up as clones for £40 or so, im saying they do a hell of a lot more than engine codes. and that was ALL i said originally, even giving examples of systems ive ACTUALLY USED it on, with various vehicles.

there will always be oddball codes that ONLY the manufacturer system will pull up. ive even said that earlier on! but id imagine most of these will be too in depth for the average DIYer to tackle in many cases. and yes, star is great if you have enough MBs to warrant a genuine one (since the clones will be of limited if any use with cars of SCN coding era)
but those of us who change brands, have numerous different brands they work with/own etc im pretty sure non of us could justify the sorts of costs Cole has to pay to have his STAR, and when everything has to be done online, there will be no other choice BUT to pay.

 

[turbopete]

Do the Delphi's allow you to code the car? Or are they purely a fault diagnostic and reset tool?

Just curious as to the capability compared with VCDS for VAG.

For example VCDS will allow you to code things to the car that aren't necessarily done from the factory.

For example on some Audi's they charge you £185 for TPMS (where it tells you the pressures) and then £185 for hill hold assist. (Prices may have changed)

However if you just specified TPMS then VCDS would be able to code HHA as it used the same control module to do so. Therefore saving the owner £185.

Another example is needle sweep. You could enable the needles to sweep all the way round and back again on ignition start up.

You could change the comfort indicator from 1-5 blinks etc.

Is this the sort of thing the Delphi will do?

they claim it will do coding of modules etc yes. its not something ive had to try yet but if i think of something i want thats just a coding excersize on my car, i might give it a try just to see what can be done.

an overview of specs and capabilities (vehicle dependent obviously) are in the links i attached

 

[Frontstep]

Perhaps this will all become immaterial when cars communicate directly with the manufacturer.

 

[V6Matty]

Perhaps this will all become immaterial when cars communicate directly with the manufacturer.

They'll still want YOU to pay for that though

 

[C350Carl]

Twice, as you'll have to pay for the data connection too.

 

[Steve@Avantgarde]

Star may cost around 11k, but there are many other tools/machinery within a garage that cost one hell of a lot more (such as ramps? 4 post etc) but these are tools and the motorist does not pay a fee as such for each item that has been used, so how did diagnosis become an extra when it is really just another tool?

I can buy 3 ramps for the cost of a STAR machine.

Again you are missing the point entirely.

Diagnosis is Labour = time taken to find out what component is wrong with your car.

Lets run this simple business exercise.

Say you were the owner of a garage. You have a car come to you with a warning light on.

The time taken to find out that component X needs replacing with testing procedures using a range of tooling from diagnosis machines, meters and scopes takes 1.5 hours. The component in question takes a further 1 hour to replace and then test. Total job time 2.5 hours.

How much labour do you think is acceptable for your garage to charge?

 

[Naraic]

I can buy 3 ramps for the cost of a STAR machine.

Again you are missing the point entirely.

Diagnosis is Labour = time taken to find out what component is wrong with your car.

Lets run this simple business exercise.

Say you were the owner of a garage. You have a car come to you with a warning light on.

The time taken to find out that component X needs replacing with testing procedures using a range of tooling from diagnosis machines, meters and scopes takes 1.5 hours. The component in question takes a further 1 hour to replace and then test. Total job time 2.5 hours.

How much labour do you think is acceptable for your garage to charge?

You probably charge for the full 2.5 hours...and why not.

MB would probably charge for 4 or more...because it's book time don't you know.

 

[LostKiwi]

Its easy to get hung up on diagnosis and fault reading.
From my perspective if I ask to have the fault codes read I would expect a reasonable charge - say 15 minutes labour plus some contribution to the cost of equipment.
So for STAR I would say its reasonable to expect to pay up to £50.
I would only expect a list of fault codes found.

Diagnosis is a much bigger thing and can involve significant time. A small part of diagnosis is the STAR code readings. Therefore for diagnosis I would expect full hourly whack but nothing extra for STAR as thats just a tool for the overall job (just as a ramp and socket set aren't charged for separately).
From diagnosis I would expect a detailed analysis of whats wrong, which parts and an estimate of cost with an expectation that the diagnosis is correct.

 

[television]

I used to love the ones that came to me in my trade. "Can you fit a new on and off switch as it will not turn on"

To put that into prospective with some post on here "I need to fit a new switch as my window will not go up or down"

My rear window has stopped working on my 216, in this case STAR was not really needed although it knew the fault was in the relay module, but then so did I before I connected up to STAR. To get to the thing is not funny, particularly when doing it for the first time. You have to find it all on WIS and print it all off, in this case.
Remove rear seat squab
Remove seat backrest.
Remove rear side panel
Electric diagram.

OK it took me 40 minutes to get it all out, but still nerve racking when doing it for the first time.

Once I could get to the ECU module and hear that only one relay was clicking I knew that a new one was required. The ECU has to ordered as S class parts are not stocked in the UK so 5 days from Germany.

OK this was not a hard case at all, but to have to charge for doing this if you just charged for 3 hours work you would never become rich.

To be fair on this subject, it is not the indies fault in the first place that the car went wrong. We are very lucky with the indies we have.

A guy I know has just paid mercedes £1250 for the supply and fitting of a £388 204 steering lock control unit.

 

[Alfie]

Perhaps this will all become immaterial when cars communicate directly with the manufacturer.

They do already.

Xentry requires an online connection to MB Germany. Any SCN coding or firmware is directed by Germany. To get this connection you need a valid account with MB and a genuine Xentry system. This costs upwards of £7k plus the monthly maintenance.

One of our Xentry systems uses the MB Connect system which costs 10 euros per hour to use.

It is entirely reasonable to allocate a percentage of the diagnosis cost to using the authorised tool to do the job.

Diagnosis isnt a rip off if its being done by someone who has real experience of the subject in question. You are paying for their expertise to start looking in the right places, work out what is wrong and then advise on a fix. What you need to be happy with is the balance between them having the right experience and the labour rate charged.

 

[EmilysDad]

..... You are paying for their expertise to start looking in the right places, work out what is wrong and then advise on a fix. ....

That's what I thought ....... it's a shame it was given back to me with the same fault/problem :lol:

 

[television]

That's what I thought ....... it's a shame it was given back to me with the same fault/problem :lol:

Maybe they were learners had not quite ripe

 

[EmilysDad]

Maybe they were learners had not quite ripe

maybe I just wonder who they think will be paying for their diagnostic by replacement

 

[television]

maybe I just wonder who they think will be paying for their diagnostic by replacement

Who did the job, an indie or mercedes. Or should I say tried to do the job.

 

[Frontstep]

As cars become ever more reliant on electronics in theory these problems will grow, in practice the diagnostic kit will improve but both take the "fix" out of the hands of your average joe,
who can at the moment buy relatively cheap kit to read some fault codes but a line of numbers alluding to his/her problem can be the start of a very expensive guessing exercise.
Your indie or maybe even MA is worth paying for, they have a "shed" load of expensive kit and years of expertise don't begrudge them a few bob for their time
I have known many people who are poor at making value judgements this seems to be one of those cases.

 

[EmilysDad]

Who did the job, an indie or mercedes. Or should I say tried to do the job.

Main dealer ;-)

 

[Alfie]

Nothing is as good as Xentry/Star for a Mercedes as it doesnt just give you fault codes it tells you the component or in some case the loom that is at fault. It also takes you through step by step processes to identify faults.
As has already been touched on it will also run diagnostics on individual components, allow parts to be actuated and readings shown from individual button presses and actuations. If there were something better then Mercedes would have it instead!

 

[_Taz_]

That's what I thought ....... it's a shame it was given back to me with the same fault/problem :lol:

My sentiments.... hence why I bought my own MB DAS / Xentry etc... & learnt how to do it properly...

Shame that the MB dealer I used was not very good, but everything happens for a reason, maybe perhaps the techhie was having a bad day at my expense !

The amount of time i've spent using the system has paid for itself about 20 times over.

On a plus, however & a positive note, there are TONS of basic & mid range diagnostic tools that the average competent user can get to grips with...

if you want to delve deeper, Mutlidiag is very good & can do lots of mid level coding that doesn't need on line.

Also, be aware that the older soft does offline coding that the newer versions make you pay for... MB learnt this pretty swiftly & hence why you now need vediamo etc... developer mode does most of that anyway ! but they DON'T let the dealers use developer

I reckon if you spent £300 wisely, you could look after 90% of big issues...

But, again, if you are not say a Merc devout owner, then no point buying a dealer tool if you are going to change in a year to say a VAG, Ford etc...

I thought Mercs were reliable anyway