Torque Converter - Gear Box Repairs

[Stephen720]

I took my E Class 320 CDI to the main dealers last week because of a loss of drive in the car. It transpired that a leaky radiator had put water into the torque converter. Under warranty, the radiator & torque converter was replaced. I asked for a copy of all the works undertaken and this was refused as this was only a matter for MB warranty. My concern now is, having had water in the torque converter it is presumably only a matter of time before the gearbox fails? I raised this issue with the dealer & they informed me that the two units (ie torque converter & gear box) were seperate and not interconnected? Is this a fact? And am I entitled to have copies of the work undertaken by MB warranty? I would apprecaite any comments. The car is an 03 under 40,000 miles.

Stephen E 320 CDI 03

 

[television]

You are OK on this one with the rest of the box, it was only the torque converter that suffered any damage with the Valeo issue.

Rest in peace

 

[Stephen720]

Thank you for the reply.

So water can get into the torque converter & not damage the gear box. I am not technical but just surprised?

 

[eric242340]

Thank you for the reply.

So water can get into the torque converter & not damage the gear box. I am not technical but just surprised?

For water to get into the Torque Converter it has to come via the oil cooler pipes which are connected to the transmission oil pump. Once the water enters the torque converter it will spread throughout the transmission in a matter of seconds. I, for one, do not believe what they have told you. On the old 140 S Class it was, unfortunately, common for the transmission oil cooler connected to the radiator to leak. This was mainly due to people using water instead of coolant. This contamination spreads so fast that I do not accept what these people have told you.

The lines are not connected directly to the Torque Converter. They are connected directly to the pump and both supply the transmission.

 

[Uncle Benz]

As Eric points out, the coolant will have contaminated the gearbox as well as the converter coupling.

Since the converter itself cannot be succesfully drained (there is not even a drain plug on these), MB require replacement, but they say to flush and refit transmission if glycol concentration below a certain level. The figures are not to hand at the mo, but I will try to find them.

I was sceptical when a customer of mine had the same type of fault on a 2002 BMW 320TD, and BMW insisted they would only pay for a new converter. 4 years and some 80K later, the gearbox has been fine, although secretly I still wonder...

Found a link with some figures in. TSB is Technical Service Bulletin (sorry its on a competing forum...)


http://www.mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=146884&highlight=tsb+glycol

 

[television]

For water to get into the Torque Converter it has to come via the oil cooler pipes which are connected to the transmission oil pump. Once the water enters the torque converter it will spread throughout the transmission in a matter of seconds. I, for one, do not believe what they have told you. On the old 140 S Class it was, unfortunately, common for the transmission oil cooler connected to the radiator to leak. This was mainly due to people using water instead of coolant. This contamination spreads so fast that I do not accept what these people have told you.

The lines are not connected directly to the Torque Converter. They are connected directly to the pump and both supply the transmission.

This fault eric is a known issue with 3 cars, the 203,209 and 211 to the 30-09-03 this leak is microscopic, it is not possible in most cases to see water on the dip stick this is why the only test is a glycol test.

I cant put the MB info up here, and MB do say that it is only the components in the torque converter that are damaged, nothing to do with draining as it could be taken off and drained, but the damage has been done.

 

[eric242340]

Malcolm, this will be an interesting thread to follow. I do not believe its simply torque converter damage, but only time will tell The risk of damage to the Torque converter due to water is minimal (few working parts that create friction). However the oil cooler lines are connected to the pump and the pump is working at approx 3.5 bar, the TC feeds the transmission valve body and in turn the oil reaches the drums and the central gear train. At this pressure they are saying it will only damage the TC. In my experience the TC will survive the water problem but the transmission will not. And, how on earth, could the contaminated oil not reach the transmission? I hope they can come up with a good answer.

So, if they are correct, then simply change the TC and I guarantee the transmission will not be OK.

 

[television]

Malcolm, this will be an interesting thread to follow. I do not believe its simply torque converter damage, but only time will tell

This is the 35th thread around the world that I have answered in and no one has had any problems since the mod was done, and some of these were almost two years ago.

The leak was so small the it was not noticed in the header tank

 

[eric242340]

This is the 35th thread around the world that I have answered in and no one has had any problems since the mod was done, and some of these were almost two years ago.

The leak was so small the it was not noticed in the header tank

Your point is taken, but why would they not give him copies of the warranty work? Its normal all over the world to give the customer copies. And a statement like (the torque converter and the transmission are not connected) is simply not true.

 

[panason1c]

The leak was so small the it was not noticed in the header tank

.....but big enough to require renewal of the torque converter!...........there is no way that coolant contamination of the atf fluid can cause terminal damage to a torque converter and NOT also cause at least some damage to the transmission....i would NOT be happy at only replacement of the TC.

It could take thousands of miles before symptoms of damage from the contamination become apparent and by then you could be well out of warranty and any 'problems', by then, blamed on other causes.

 

[eric242340]

.....but big enough to require renewal of the torque converter!...........there is no way that coolant contamination of the atf fluid can cause terminal damage to a torque converter and NOT also cause at least some damage to the transmission....i would NOT be happy at only replacement of the TC.

It could take thousands of miles before symptoms of damage from the contamination become apparent and by then you could be well out of warranty and any 'problems', by then, blamed on other causes.

Panasonic, WELL SAID, this man is about to be cheated and we should not allow this to happen. Malcolm, Modifications come after the event and not before, therefor Benz try to reduce the cost without recall. But cheating owners in such a blatant way infuriates me. Sorry for my angry reply. I would stand 100 percent behind this man in getting a satisfactory solution. ie, a replacement transmission.

 

[television]

.....but big enough to require renewal of the torque converter!...........there is no way that coolant contamination of the atf fluid can cause terminal damage to a torque converter and NOT also cause at least some damage to the transmission....i would NOT be happy at only replacement of the TC.

It could take thousands of miles before symptoms of damage from the contamination become apparent and by then you could be well out of warranty and any 'problems', by then, blamed on other causes.

This is a forum, you are welcome to your view, I can only report of what I know on the subject.
I have never taken a torque converter to pieces, so I do not know what is inside them. Since this has been on going for 4 years or more some very high mileages must have been done.

Stop having a go at me Panasonic, I have only put up the facts, Have a go at MB instead.

 

[eric242340]

This is a forum, you are welcome to your view, I can only report of what I know on the subject.
I have never taken a torque converter to pieces, so I do not know what is inside them. Since this has been on going for 4 years or more some very high mileages must have been done.

Stop having a go at me Panasonic, I have only put up the facts, Have a go at MB instead.

Malcom, I dont think Panasonic is (having a go at you) he is simply doing as you do and reporting the facts.

 

[television]

Panasonic, WELL SAID, this man is about to be cheated and we should not allow this to happen. Malcolm, Modifications come after the event and not before, therefor Benz try to reduce the cost without recall. But cheating owners in such a blatant way infuriates me. Sorry for my angry reply. I would stand 100 percent behind this man in getting a satisfactory solution. ie, a replacement transmission.

Eric you are making wild accusations about something that you have not experienced or seen, have a go at MB if you know so much more.

I think that MB know a little more on the subject, and no one as of yet has come back on any forum that I know with further problems after 4 years + since this fault came to light

 

[panason1c]

This is a forum, you are welcome to your view, I can only report of what I know on the subject.
I have never taken a torque converter to pieces, so I do not know what is inside them. Since this has been on going for 4 years or more some very high mileages must have been done.

Stop having a go at me Panasonic, I have only put up the facts, Have a go at MB instead.

Not sure why you feel i'm having a go at you based on the above post....i simply posted my ironic 'thoughts' that from a 'small leak' a serious failure occurs!..........still, if the cap fits, wear it.

By the way, where do you get your FACTs from that ONLY tc's suffer damage from the contamination and NOT the transmission?

 

[eric242340]

Eric you are making wild accusations about something that you have not experienced or seen, have a go at MB if you know so much more.

I think that MB know a little more on the subject, and no one as of yet has come back on any forum that I know with further problems after 4 years + since this fault came to light

Maybe because they dont fix them for a living? Would this (perhaps) have something to do with it? Also (maybe this is why they are asking questions on a Forum)?

 

[panason1c]

Eric you are making wild accusations about something that you have not experienced or seen, have a go at MB if you know so much more.

I think that MB know a little more on the subject, and no one as of yet has come back on any forum that I know with further problems after 4 years + since this fault came to light

The real world is quite often seen by those of us on the shop floor rather that the office boffins whoare possibly brainwashed by their superiors into believing situations that are simply not true..

 

[television]

Not sure why you feel i'm having a go at you based on the above post....i simply posted my ironic 'thoughts' that from a 'small leak' a serious failure occurs!..........still, if the cap fits, wear it.

By the way, where do you get your FACTs from that ONLY tc's suffer damage from the contamination and NOT the transmission?

The little leak does not cause a serious failure, it causes vibrations and droning noises.

I get info for MB service from many sources,

Do have a nice rest of the day

 

[panason1c]

The little leak does not cause a serious failure, it causes vibrations and droning noises.

I get info for MB service from many sources,

Do have a nice rest of the day

Oh, so as the remedy for the vibration, etc requires a new tc you do not consider this a serious failure???

I'm sure my day will be much nicer than yours......the sun is shining

 

[television]

The real world is quite often seen by those of us on the shop floor rather that the office boffins whoare possibly brainwashed by their superiors into believing situations that are simply not true..

I am aware of the fact that there have been around 40k failures of this type on the 3 models involved around the world.

No one come back yet with further problems, I also have worked in a world of the service industry, and this is an area where office boys do not come into it, I think that you have that backwards, as at times like this the technicians give the feedback and cure back to the office, Been there and done it for huge international companies