Trump & May, we're all doomed!

[C350Carl]

They don't need to speak to Israel. They just need to use some of their significant arsenal of Thermobaric devices.

I've seen Fast and Furious so i know they have tunnels too

But seriously. Yes they will just tunnel. But there are still, currently, pourous areas of the US/Mex border overland. One of the things about it that pis5ed Don-T off was that an illegal immigrant could cross the border and get access to free healthcare (well until he repealed the Obamacare act) and that a Veteran who had served and in a lot of cases been injured for his country had to join a queue.

As with anything though people are resistant to change. What any of this sort of thing has to do with 90% of the U.K. Population is beyond me.

I saw this today on faceache, before the petition had reached over 1mil.

 

[steve_k243]

I signed one of those petitions and it wasn't the one to do away with generations of diplomatic protocol.

 

[JBell]

One of the things about it that pis5ed Don-T off was that an illegal immigrant could cross the border and get access to free healthcare (well until he repealed the Obamacare act) and that a Veteran who had served and in a lot of cases been injured for his country had to join a queue.

Now where have I heard that before

 

[JBell]

What is do find interesting though is the total outrage caused by the ban on people from certain countires:

President Trump's temporary travel ban for seven Muslim countries - a plan that was initially drawn up by the Obama administration!
In 2011, Obama brought in a six month ban on any Iraqi coming into the United States. Where was the outrage then?

 

[LostKiwi]

What is do find interesting though is the total outrage caused by the ban on people from certain countires:

President Trump's temporary travel ban for seven Muslim countries - a plan that was initially drawn up by the Obama administration!
In 2011, Obama brought in a six month ban on any Iraqi coming into the United States. Where was the outrage then?

Its all about perceptions.
Trump is perceived (perhaps rightly, perhaps not - time will tell) as a misogynistic xenophobic narcissist whereas Obama was perceived as an elegant, classy gentleman (in all senses of the word).

One will generate outrage as it supports the perception and the other won't as it must be something that needs doing otherwise he wouldn't do it.

 

[C350Carl]

What is do find interesting though is the total outrage caused by the ban on people from certain countires:



President Trump's temporary travel ban for seven Muslim countries - a plan that was initially drawn up by the Obama administration!

In 2011, Obama brought in a six month ban on any Iraqi coming into the United States. Where was the outrage then?

I'm sure I posted that in the other thread

 

[JBell]

I'm sure I posted that in the other thread

It's on the BBC so ner ;-)

 

[Craiglxviii]

Its all about perceptions.
Trump is perceived (perhaps rightly, perhaps not - time will tell) as a misogynistic xenophobic narcissist whereas Obama was perceived as an elegant, classy gentleman (in all senses of the word).

One will generate outrage as it supports the perception and the other won't as it must be something that needs doing otherwise he wouldn't do it.

It's ironic isn't it. So far the vast majority of people who have either met Trump in person at political rallies, or have worked with him have all come away saying what a charming, nice, friendly, likeable chap he is. He actively seeks alternative opinions and is well-known for holding a Red Team brief every week (as in, what are the other options besides what we have chosen, give different/ contrary viewpoints to dissect).

The overwhelming opinion of King Barry the Stupid by people who worked with/ for him is that if you disagreed with his opinions you'd better be good at quickly finding a new, exciting opportunity elsewhere. He tolerated no dissenters and refused to listen to alternate opinions. He was a very unpleasant man to work for.

Out of interest, Obama developed his political leanings in Chicago. One of his early mentors (and Hilary Clinton's by the way) was Saul Alinsky. Saul Alinsky was a close associate of Frank Nitti and both were direct employees of Al Capone until the latter's death and Nitti taking over the Organization. So, there is a direct link in thought processes and attitude between Chicago organized crime and two Presidential nominees, one actually being inaugurated.

Obama puts on a cultured, urbane face to the world, but behind closed doors has been demonstrated to act the thug.

 

[C350Carl]

Well I'm no Don-T fan boy in the slightest. But let's look at what the chap has actually done so far.

Implemented a temporary ban on visas to 7 countries. These countries weren't chosen by Trump. They were infact chosen by the previous Obama Administration and that fact is readily available from the Dept of Homeland Security website. Something I found in 30Secs of research on Google.

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program#

He has saved the US $billions with a few simple tweets. F35 program and Airforce one to name two.

He wants to block illegal immigrants from walking over a border and obtaining free healthcare when a veteran who has fought and in many cases been injured for his country has to join a queue. I don't see the commotion over this.

He wants to have diplomatic dialogue with all countries including the likes of Russia and China. As he says we may not like them and their values. But if America can get along with them in the political sphere it may just help make America that little bit safer at home and it may just help reduce the threat when abroad.

He wants to continue to be part of NATO. But says it's pointless as it is if all members don't spend at least 2% of GDP on their own military and NATO capabilities. He isn't prepared for the US to keep footing 2/3 of the bill and to be honest I agree with him. Why should they?

He repealed the Obamacare act as in its current form it was unsustainable. This was mentioned during the Obama administration period. It somehow still got through congress. But again he has save the US Govt $Billions by doing so. Don't forget Congress supported this repeal.

He has said that he agrees with enhanced interrogation (torture). However he has left the decision of it's use down to his defence secretary and military officials. So they will decide wether or not to use it. Whilst I don't condone any type of torture I can understand why he has this thought process. As he quite rightly pointed out Daesh do barbaric acts of torture. What he is controlled interrogation (torture) through the use of sensory overload/depravation through water boarding etc. Best way to put out a fire is with water! At the end of the day if it gets actionable intel and saves the lives of a few hundred+ Americans and westerners. Then I certainly won't lose any sleep.

Put another way. If the US intel services alerted the U.K. Intel services to an imminent Paris style attack, and that intel came from water boarding. What would **** you off the most. If they actioned it and stopped the attack. Or they ignored it due to the way the intel was gained and let the attack happen.

I could carry on but I won't.

This for me is all about media portrayal and perception (we all know the media won't let the truth spoil a good story).

As LK says. Trump is perceived (perhaps rightly, perhaps not - time will tell) as a misogynistic xenophobic narcissist.

But maybe we should give him a chance and let him be POTUS. Until he does something that affects us as U.K. Citizens I really don't see why people are jumping on the bandwagon.

Feel free to discuss/put up counter arguments. I like healthy debates.

 

[Xtractorfan]

I just think that if some people take an alternative view why should anyone see fit to attack the people who are protesting, they obviously see a problem with what Trump is doing. No doubt the media who dont report issues when its about sodiers returning from wars and getting the raw end of the deal, but who will report on big stories like TRump and his doings.. they will come up witha few dozen anarchists who delibertaly infiltrate these protests just to cause mayhem.
So for your issue with vets being forgotten about, you really do have to blame the media for not reporting these stories.
Media coverage is how we get to know about these things. Just watch how governments release what they want us to 'not know' when there is a big news story breaking.

 

[JBell]

He wants to block illegal immigrants from walking over a border and obtaining free healthcare when a veteran who has fought and in many cases been injured for his country has to join a queue. I don't see the commotion over this.

A lesson learnt for all of us

 

[Craiglxviii]

I don't disagree with a single point there Carl but then you already know that.

Incidentally here is Air Force One, it is being restored... (it's the original Air Force One!) https://youtu.be/noK9RCBh9iE

Point to note here. Trump is vilified in the Press, by politicians and institutions worldwide. Now ask yourself, for every outlet, organization or institution doing that vilifying, what do they have to lose by him becoming President? Specifically, through the policies he has put on his manifesto to enact? In just about every case, the answer is "a lot".

He has a big mouth and isn't afraid to let it go. When one analyses what he says however a curious pattern emerges, that of taking an extreme position prior to bargaining. So, on the F-35 program, an extreme position ("Buy F/A18E from your competition...") had the desired reaction ("Message understood, we will cut costs"). He has now joined the actual DoD Project Team to conduct detailed negotiations himself. That gives a clear message- "We can do this" as well as "Follow me". Leading by example. It's a better message than "Do this". It also sends another message to any other Federal agency- this POTUS will step in and run it himself if it doesn't shape up and do so sharpish.

His view on NATO is another instance of that extreme stance, and I agree with it. 50 years ago it suited US interests to bolster Europe's defences while they spent their GDP on social development programs. They're now complete, there is no danger of Communist 5th columns taking countries over by coups d'état, so why should Europe not pony up the cash as regards defence? No reason why not.

And so on, and so on. Trump's biggest job is to sort out the mess he inherited from 8 years of Progressive Liberal Democrat haymaking. He has both Houses on his side and the electorate mostly behind him. He has the Liberal left and the majority of the Press against him... I'd like to know how much cash, influence and political capital is bleeding out now. A lot I suspect. The Chicago Political Machine is going into overdrive at Trump's suggestion to Federalise the Guard to sort out Chicago's streets

 

[C350Carl]

Media coverage is how we get to know about these things. Just watch how governments release what they want us to 'not know' when there is a big news story breaking.

My gripe with that is twofold. Firstly it is that they never let a good story get spoiled by the truth. Secondly the population on the whole don't bother to research and just believe it because Sky/Fox/CNN etc said so.

 

[Craiglxviii]

I just think that if some people take an alternative view why should anyone see fit to attack the people who are protesting, they obviously see a problem with what Trump is doing. No doubt the media who dont report issues when its about sodiers returning from wars and getting the raw end of the deal, but who will report on big stories like TRump and his doings.. they will come up witha few dozen anarchists who delibertaly infiltrate these protests just to cause mayhem.
So for your issue with vets being forgotten about, you really do have to blame the media for not reporting these stories.
Media coverage is how we get to know about these things. Just watch how governments release what they want us to 'not know' when there is a big news story breaking.

If people are protesting so vigourously one might want to ask them exactly what they are protesting about. This was done last week in the States with the various Womens Marches. A number of interviews were conducted. "Why are you marching?" "Because Trump will reduce womens' rights!" "Because Trump encourages sexual harassment!" and so on. He's not said or done anything at all to give that opinion. Meanwhile, Democrat supporters set a woman's hair on fire on one of these marches. Didn't see it in the news? Hmm, wonder why not.

By the way XTractor, it's not "a few dozen anarchists". The Democrats are actively employing hundreds of rent-a-thugs, professional rioters, call them what you like to organize and lead these sorts of thing. This came out during the "emailgate" saga with payments being shown from local Democrat party chapters, bus tickets being purchased to transport people in to specific areas to organize and foment protests.

You're right in that one can claim the media don't release things (veterans healthcare for instance) because there is little public interest in it. However they can release stories which do go along with their political supporters (MUSLIMS BANNED FROM ENTERING THE COUNTRY!!!!!!!!!!!!) instead. Why is that? Wy can't their mass media get behind their old & bold on something like healthcare provision? It took Joanna Lumley campaigning off her own bat to get recognition for Gurkhas here, the media didn't want to know until she started making her mouth go about it.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Carl, by the way I asked someone who deals with these things about tackling ISIS/ISIL/ Daesh etc. Remember we had the conversation a while back? I got this today.

The problem with this is that, by and large, sweeps into areas don't work. This is something Suphi (ed. General Supatra Suriothai) used to speak about and the basic message was that sweeps cause vast amounts of disruption that alienates the local population but don't catch the people who actually do the organization. When the sweep starts, they retreat into the woodwork but when the sweep is over they come out with the message "See, the kaffirs came, destroyed your crops, wrecked your homes, disrupted your lives and then they went. But we are still here. Your friend Mustapha collaborated with them and you will now find his remains on first, second, third and seventh street. What's left of his family are on fifth street. Now, you were saying?"

Building wells, irrigation whatever, is simply providing the terrorists with targets. Build a school, the terrorists blow it up and they've blown up the government's school. All that construction and beneficial stuff has to wait until the terrorists have been neutralized and the only way to do that is to occupy the centers of population they come from. Sweeps won't work; each individual population center has to be isolated from the terrorist leaders and secured. Then, turned against the terrorists. Only when those population centers have been isolated and turned can the civil development work start.

At the same time we have to hunt down and kill the agitators who are the driving force behind the terrorists. Catching groups of terrorists is all very well but its a short-term success if that. Those people are expendable - they're probably going to kill themselves anyway. We need to identify and take down the agitators and those who cover for them. We need to isolate ourselves from such people and their fellow-travelers. Its not a pretty process.

 

[Xtractorfan]

My gripe with that is twofold. Firstly it is that they never let a good story get spoiled by the truth. Secondly the population on the whole don't bother to research and just believe it because Sky/Fox/CNN etc said so.

Agree totally with you on this Carl,and then you have to include our Gutter press as well. These guys arent there to worry about small matters like a few wounded vets. who happen to have fallen on hard times, unless it can sell newspapers.

 

[bembo449]

ive heard a few family / friends complaining about Trump but they go awfully quiet when I ask why ?

 

[C350Carl]

Agree totally with you on this Carl,and then you have to include our Gutter press as well. These guys arent there to worry about small matters like a few wounded vets. who happen to have fallen on hard times, unless it can sell newspapers.

It's not specific to wounded vets though and if it came across that way it wasn't intended. The same could be said of any taxpayer here or in the US. I mentioned the vets as it's something Trump allegedly said. I've not seen the specific reference though of when he did.

Regardless if he did or not. The sentiment is still the same and I think he should be given a chance to lead.

Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

 

[PovertySpec]

I think he should be given a chance to lead.

Hear hear. He might prove everyone wrong, he may prove everyone right.

In the meantime it's good fun watching all the liberals getting their knickers in a twist!

 

[Craiglxviii]

Trump and the CIA

Another very insightful communication here.

Try to think of a national security issue which doesn't pertain responsibilities and expertise of a reliable Director of National Intelligence.

The problem is that DNI is not, and has not, been reliable for many years. This goes far back beyond Obama, right back to the early days of the establishment of America's intelligence system. Some might well put the word system in "" since its chaotic and always has been politicized to a point where its reliability and integrity have been questioned.

NSC was originally conceived as a Presidential Think-Tank where policy options could be weighed and alternatives discussed. That's how it functioned under Eisenhower - reading the NSC papers from that era is quite startling because they show an NSC that is vastly different from the organization we have today. Above all, the NSC was conceived as being an advisory council composed of people the President trusted to give him impartial, objective advice. It could be argued, quite persuasively, that the NSC was founded because the consolidation of the American intelligence system into a more-or-less single centralized whole (the name Central Intelligence Agency is much more informative than it seems - some have suggested the only inappropriate word is intelligence in any of its meanings and the position of Director of Central Intelligence is equally indicative) meant that there was only one intelligence picture being presented and that is the one the politicians as represented by DCI want presented.

The truth is - and this reorganization of the NSC is that President Trump simply does not trust the intelligence community. One of the (many, many) things people miss about Trump is that he has access to his own intelligence service that he does trust. That intelligence system is the world business community. It has its own flow of information and its own analysis function and its a self-testing one. Trump has been part of it, and uses it, for decades. He has seen the US intelligence services and he does not like what he is seeing.

Now, this brings us to another point that is really significant. NSC membership has become seen as something that comes with the rations. Get a certain post (whether it is CJCS or DNI) and along comes membership of the NSC. Yet, that is precisely what was not intended. NSC was intended to be a group of advisors that the President trusted to give him impartial analysis and alternatives. Instead, the NSC has become a group of trained seals who sit there with balls balanced on their nose, clapping their flippers and going "Awk, Awk, Awk, what the (democrat) bureacracy says. Awk Awk Awk there is no alternative Awk Awk Awk."

President Trump appears to be going back to the original concept of the NSC as it was under Eisenhower and organizing/appointing a group of people he can trust to give him viable alternatives and analysis. In fact, think of NSC in its reorganized form as his board of directors and you won't be far from the truth. Its a process of clearing the heavily-democrat time-serving bureaucracy out of power and that's why the original article made such a fuss about it. The people who are being cleared out never though that could happen and are fighting to prevent it using their allies in the press as shock-troops.

President Trump is also telling people that if they want to be part of organizations like NSC, they'd better perform according to expectations or they're out. What does that tell us about DNI and CJCS?