DIESEL SCAPEGOATS - WE ARE SCRAP?

[davemercedes]

I'm wondering if, given that we will have a government that won't be able to pass legislation easily or quickly, that the proposals to butt **** diesel drivers will be shelved for a while?

No. Greater London Council (under Mayor Sadiq Khan have already created the legislation to charge diesel drivers (no the very latest Euo III) £10 a day. And 35 other city councils have said they will "go green" and follow suit.

 

[Craiglxviii]

That's just another treaty that was signed by politicians who had the gravy on a day out but will do nothing about the problems that occur. And when problems do occur, some countries (not pointing at our close neighbours or anything) will simply ignore the treaty but our attitude will be that we must play cricket by the book.

But what do I know (I've only been a taxpayer for 60+ years!).
- I must be wrong because the Gruadian says it was "the world's greatest diplomatic success".
- Lunch must have been very good.

It's a bit deeper than that. The Paris Climate Agreement is a very finely calculated wealth redistribution instrument. Remove pollution from developed nations by legislation, and use commercial pressure to dump it in less developed nations. Hence swinging of manufacturing to China and India of product including "green energy" tech.

So instead of keeping the (wealth generating) manufacture of tech within the developed world and making the manufacture of it cleaner- and increasing the wealth of the developed world at the expense of the developing world, it was the developing world that was given the chance to make wealth through manufacture of the product...

That's why Trump walked out. I've spoken of maximal realism before and he is the archetypical maximal realist. "What's in it for me?" is the question a maximal realist would ask. "Err, you agree to pay money to other countries so they can build wind turbines." "Why can I not have my workforce build them? I want jobs in America. " "Err, because we agreed to let other people build them because POLLUTION IS BAD."

<beat>

"I can fix the pollution problem and have my workforce build this stuff... you're fired!"

 

[Frosty149]

As previously mentioned Elon Musk and Disney resigned their roles on his business panel in protest, and several states have unilaterally agreed to cooperate with the agreement
Trump, comedy gold and scary at the same time

 

[Craiglxviii]

As previously mentioned Elon Musk and Disney resigned their roles on his business panel in protest, and several states have unilaterally agreed to cooperate with the agreement
Trump, comedy gold and scary at the same time

Hmm. Look at what the Paris Agreement has achieved... and look at which political party Musk and those states support.

 

[Brizzle]

It's a bit deeper than that. The Paris Climate Agreement is a very finely calculated wealth redistribution instrument. Remove pollution from developed nations by legislation, and use commercial pressure to dump it in less developed nations. Hence swinging of manufacturing to China and India of product including "green energy" tech.

So instead of keeping the (wealth generating) manufacture of tech within the developed world and making the manufacture of it cleaner- and increasing the wealth of the developed world at the expense of the developing world, it was the developing world that was given the chance to make wealth through manufacture of the product...

That's why Trump walked out. I've spoken of maximal realism before and he is the archetypical maximal realist. "What's in it for me?" is the question a maximal realist would ask. "Err, you agree to pay money to other countries so they can build wind turbines." "Why can I not have my workforce build them? I want jobs in America. " "Err, because we agreed to let other people build them because POLLUTION IS BAD."

<beat>

"I can fix the pollution problem and have my workforce build this stuff... you're fired!"

As someone involved in the wind power industry (albeit only as the supplier of met sensors) I can tell you that all of our turbine manufacturing customers are based here in Europe, as are the systems integrators, and maintenance companies. Yes, turbine masts and blades will get manufactured elsewhere in the world but that is simply because it doesn't make economic sense to ship them from factories in Europe over to China or India or even the USA. Speaking with the turbines manufacturers as we do on a regular basis none of them are anticipating building turbines or gearboxes elsewhere - but that might change in the fulness of time. The R&D effort will almost certainly remain in Europe.

The wind energy market in the USA is about to explode with more projects than you could shake a stick at being proposed. The FAA has finally woken up to the realisation that they need to sort out anti-collision lighting regulations (something we have been deeply involved in formulating). All of this activity would swamp blade and tower factories in Europe so Trump will get his US jobs and the electorate will think he did a great job ducking out of the Paris agreement but making blades and towers won't create much wealth - the wealth in a wind turbine in in the technology and manufacture of the turbine itself ... and that will come back to the likes of Siemens, Nordex and Senvion here in Europe.

 

[Racerroy]

Indeed but that is the system not the cars

Have members seen the Telegraph article of the 18th July 2017 headed Daimler recalls millions of Diesels over harmful emissions ?
this I understand followed German police raids on MB head offices and the removal of documentation. I have on several occasions contacted both my local agents and MB UK to ask when the recall and software update will start only to be told that they have no info. Has any one out there any news?

 

[Craiglxviii]

Yup.

 

[mikestrivens]

Yup.

Oh go be a devil and elaborate.

 

[Craiglxviii]

Oh go be a devil and elaborate.

Nope

 

[HERBIEMERCMAN]

Ok it is 9 months since i did this thread and now the Germans have actually done what i predicted most EU Countries would do by banning all old diesel cars, it is mega politics, they know over population and crowded roads with hydrocarbon propulsion is the real problem. Petrol engines produce more CO2 than diesel engines, and most of the old diesel cars have the EGR to reduce NOX and many with the particulate filters. I am not sure if is true but i was told that if you take the "cradle to grave" measurement on all electric cars they have a bigger CO2 footprint than diesel cars? Another major factor is that they always use the crowded cities for research and ignore how much wind we get and the fact that many motorists stay out of the cities if they can. So for me it is another political points scoring act. What do you think? Herbie.

 

[d215yq]

Ok it is 9 months since i did this thread and now the Germans have actually done what i predicted most EU Countries would do by banning all old diesel cars, it is mega politics, they know over population and crowded roads with hydrocarbon propulsion is the real problem. Petrol engines produce more CO2 than diesel engines, and most of the old diesel cars have the EGR to reduce NOX and many with the particulate filters. I am not sure if is true but i was told that if you take the "cradle to grave" measurement on all electric cars they have a bigger CO2 footprint than diesel cars? Another major factor is that they always use the crowded cities for research and ignore how much wind we get and the fact that many motorists stay out of the cities if they can. So for me it is another political points scoring act. What do you think? Herbie.

In what form have they banned diesel cars - just in cities or everywhere? I must admit I was surprised Barcelona banned all old diesel cars for the whole metropolitan area not just the centre - lucky I don't live there any more.

To be honest, I wish these cities would either do nothing or just ban/heavily charge all cars. The problems with cars in cities is not really emissions, it's the noise, the danger, the fact people can't use the space, the parking, etc. Since moving to Spain I am now a convert to the slow conversion of space from roads to bike lanes, parking spaces to parks, etc. I've seen it happen in Barcelona (and now in Valencia) and it means people avoid all these areas in all cars unless absolutely necessary without any bans because it's so much nicer/quicker to walk/cycle/take public transport, and horribler in a car (it helps that it's under 1€ to take a train/tuibe/bus/mix anywhere in the city) and the there is all the benefits to a largely car free centre which is just so much nicer and healthier for everyone. Of my friends who live in Barcelona/Valencia I'm one of the only with a car - it's just not worth it, and I only have my car as I have to drive outside of the city, love the countryside and to get to work. I've never actually driven it, nor would in the cities.

All the bans do is just force people to buy newer cars and then they are going to have to drive them in the cities to justify their investment (those too poor to change vehicle generally never drive in the cities anyway). So as bans/charges dont reduce anything time to create lots of cycle lanes, housing and parks on a lot of roads and when it takes 4h to move 2 miles finally people will realise there are better ways to go into cities and use things like their legs and get healthier too.

 

[LostKiwi]

I am not sure if is true but i was told that if you take the "cradle to grave" measurement on all electric cars they have a bigger CO2 footprint than diesel cars?

Its not true.
https://cleantechnica.com/2017/11/0...el-cars-even-powered-dirtiest-electricity-eu/

The point is that an electric vehicle can be far less poluting than a diesel vehicle.
And if we look at the other emissions an electric vehicle has zero NOx and much reduced PM10 pollutants - the ones that are most harmful in the short term to human health.

 

[A.J.]

Its not true.
https://cleantechnica.com/2017/11/0...el-cars-even-powered-dirtiest-electricity-eu/

The point is that an electric vehicle can be far less poluting than a diesel vehicle.
And if we look at the other emissions an electric vehicle has zero NOx and much reduced PM10 pollutants - the ones that are most harmful in the short term to human health.

I think also that more importantly it is clean at point of use, IE urban areas

 

[Botus]

at least one country has some sanity, the rest don't care if the salves die

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ies-can-ban-diesel-cars-combat-air-pollution/


Diesel cars could be banned from German cities within weeks to cut air pollution following a landmark court ruling on Tuesday.

In a decision that is thought could inspire similar moves across Europe, Germany’s highest administrative court ruled that individual municipalities can ban older diesel cars from their streets in order to bring pollution levels down.

The ruling sent shares in German carmakers tumbling and caused widespread concern among diesel car owners that their vehicles could lose almost all their second hand value if they are banned from city streets.

Hamburg, Germany’s second-largest city, said it would impose a ban on some of its most polluted streets “within a few weeks”, and other major cities including Düsseldorf and Stuttgart, the home of Mercedes and Porsche, are expected to follow.

 

[HERBIEMERCMAN]

I totally agree with no poluteants at the point of use but there are other issues of people being badly injured by not hearing these cars approach, especially on car parks etc, the point i made was more about the CO2 and its efects with climate change, this is a growing issue now throughout the globe.
Sounds good in Spain we are very over populated and the roads can not cope, many are spending 15 to 20 hrs per week in their cars to cover relatively short journeys, Manchester is one of the worst. The Government are more concerned with improving life for the few people who can afford to travel from London to Manchester on a 54 billion high speed train then finding it will take them 2 hrs to get to Bolton on local roads. Herbie.

 

[davemercedes]

It was obvious from the beginning that the tree huggers would be jockeying to get diesel CARS off the road as soon/much as possible while continuing to ignore the filthy 40 year old buses and trucks etc that are still running around especially in major city areas. Of course for many who lease their car (s) (or run PCP vehicles) or simply enjoy compay-supplied transport (aah those were the days!), switching over will be relatively easy and as all brands will be competing for market share it won't be too expensive.

But the worst part is the way in which quite a large segment of today's drivers i.e.: at the bottom end of the market, simply will not be able to afford to change to a new (i.e: electric) car even if it fulfills their needs and many of them (myself included!) in that segment decided to switch to diesel as it was held up as the better choice by government. Now of course, they fairly freely admit "we wuz wrong" but it's not a big enough "injustice" for Mrs Mayhem to look for a way to help.

Speaking for myself, I have an '07 C220 Estate with less than 100K on the clock that frankly has nothing wrong with it and completely meets our needs - so unless a large lottery payment arrives, I will stick with it unless and until running costs and combined taxes force me to go down another route. Driving into most cities is not a requirement for me so with luck it will continue to provide a viable means of transport for quite a while. But that also means fighting against a two-edged sword because when the time comes that a change is forced on me, not only are the new (electric) vehicles going to be more expensive but the trade in value of my diesel car will rapidly decline over the next few years because in the end there will be nowhere for them to go - and that's the unhappy situation for a lot of diesel drivers.

The railway indulgence you mention Herbies is of course just that - at a time when government has squeezed the taxpayer to the point of despair the provision of this railway toy will enable those in the south to buy better but much cheaper property in or near the midlands and simultaneously price the local residents out of the market while they travel to London in luxury - and all at the grossly under-estimated cost which is just another example of financial obscenity. Just another injustice for Mrs Mayhem to ignore!

 

[HERBIEMERCMAN]

Good posting dave your a "man after my own heart". London gets all the goodies not the North, however they have also "sewn the wind" IMHO, as mass overpopulation and the related issues it will bring to hospital care,polution,crime,terrorism,travel congestion, schools and dental care, will be awfull. May be we in the North will intrincically be better off. ? Herbie.

 

[davemercedes]

Good posting dave your a "man after my own heart". London gets all the goodies not the North, however they have also "sewn the wind" IMHO, as mass overpopulation and the related issues it will bring to hospital care,polution,crime,terrorism,travel congestion, schools and dental care, will be awfull. May be we in the North will intrincically be better off. ? Herbie.

Trouble is Herbie, we don't know what future cuts this miserable lot have got up their sleeves. They have just about strangled the NHS while as usual proclaiming "it's safe with us". I had the misfortune to visit Southport Hospital where my sister was a few weeks ago (sadly, she died). Out of normal hours we used a way in via a corridor leading to the A&E Dept... and each time we went there, regardless of the time of day or night there were trolleys with people waiting to be seen or admitted while the staff grimly did their best. My niece said it took best part of a day to get my sister admitted even though she was in a critical state (no beds available - I don't know if/how many they've withdrawn). Still can't fault the staff (of every ethnicity) who always tried their best.

 

[Brizzle]

Its not true.
https://cleantechnica.com/2017/11/0...el-cars-even-powered-dirtiest-electricity-eu/

The point is that an electric vehicle can be far less poluting than a diesel vehicle.
And if we look at the other emissions an electric vehicle has zero NOx and much reduced PM10 pollutants - the ones that are most harmful in the short term to human health.

I would be more impressed with those graphs if they were comparing apples with apples. The CO2/km for diesels isn't a direct comparison to CO2/KWh for EVs. There is also insufficient detail in the data used; does "well to tank" include the carbon footprint of the ships used to move battery raw materials around the planet and the emissions from the various smelters and other processes involved in refining the Lithium? And don't forget, this isn't a once in a lifetime event as batteries are not lifed for the lifetime of the rest of the vehicle.

Whilst the emphasis is currently (and maybe correctly) on the health effects of vehicles in our towns and cities we appear to be ignoring the environmental devastation caused by mining the raw materials for Lithium-Iron batteries.

 

[HERBIEMERCMAN]

Hi Dave, for the most part i think the work they do is vocational and a root problem is we as a nation have not realised the consequencies of over population, the EEC has watched us "fill our life boats" to the point where a lot will sink, the strategy is always more,more, more, and the masses suffer, the rich like the strategy because they can "duck down"when they need to, BUPA etc, and their businesses grow, the more people the better. It was Blair who opened the flood gates and let everybody in without any screening, so the NHS got the worst flooding and they still have it.
The Brexit vote was driven by this situation, but the wealthy do not want change and are able to keep away from the problems of over population, however the wealthy are running the job and the referendum, IMHO, was a waste of time, for the masses that is. Herbie.