230TE engine concerns - 230TE engine concerns

[stu thornton]

Hi

I bought my 1988 230TE in March this year.  It`s in excellent original condition, but the engine is giving me some (significant) concern.  I`ve just returned from two weeks touring with my family in France.  We covered 2000 miles in two weeks.  The car was fantastic but I have the following concerns:-

1. The temperature rises very quickly in traffic (1 - 2 mins).  The fan cuts in as it should and the temp drops but it really cycles too erratically.  The engine really doesn`t feel good around towns when hot, although its great on the open road.

2. When under, even minor, strain the engine pinks badly and the engine feels "loose" (the best way I can describe it).

3. The engine sometimes sounds rather noisy, no real specifics but, as i said before "loose".

The car was superb on the holiday and apart from the engine I`m delighted with it.

What do you guys think?  Could I be looking at major work?  What would be the worst case for recon engine etc. (cost / availablity).

Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Andy]

230TE engine concerns

Hi Stuart

You don't say how many miles the vehicle has covered. But I will see if I can address one or two of your concerns.

By the sounds of it the fan is working correctly. With the higher ambient temperature in France, it will soon get  the fan switching in & out. If the enignes seems like its erractic at idle when the fan cuts in. It could be that the engine RPM is a little low.

The engine pinking. Sounds like the cyl head is coked up. Sometimes you can retard the timing a touch. But experience tells me its more than likely in need of decoking.

You mention that the engine sounds noisy. These early enigines do when they have covered a few miles. As I have just said it an early engine. I would check if the air filter has signs of engine oil in there. If so I would say the engine is worn. (maybe sticking my head out a bit here). If the engine has done anything around 150k. Then thats what is likely to be.

Hope I am wrong.

Regards


Andy @ www.mercedesservicing.com

 

[sunil sood]

230TE engine concerns

had a similr problem with my 190e-the temp gauge needle used to sit at the top of the gauge.
-the cooling fan switch may be cutting in late-i replaced this on my car and the problem is sorted-this may apply to your car if it has a electro-magnetically controlled fan clutch.
if it has a thermo-viscous opearated fan -then the thermocoupling needs to be checked,the fan should freewheel when engine is cold and be hard to rotate by hand when engine is hot-the engine has to switched off when these tests are carried out for obvious reasons.!!!

the other possibilities are,faulty thermostat,check coolant level and coolant to water ratios-,blocked radiator grille,insects or external obstuction such as extra lamps preventing  airflow,blocked radiator,faulty expansion tank/radiator cap .it is aprocess of elimination to find the culprit,the cooling fan switch and thermostats may be good starting points--ther is a lot here -hope this helps.

 

[stu thornton]

230TE engine concerns

Thanks for the info.

Andy - the car has covered 165k (with FSH).  Are there any checks I could carry out myself?  I assume a compression test would give some indication.  I`ll check the air filter also.

Assuming that something is wrong I need to establish whether it is economical to pay for the de-coke or enigine rebuild (at worst) or replace the vehicle, although I`m loath to do this because it`s a superb car.  What would the (ball park) cost for these type of jobs be and where best to get them done.

Sunil - I`ve already replaced the thermostat and the fan switch.  This resulted in the fan switching in and out at the correct temperatures, my concern was that the temperature rises so quickly, unfortunately, the ambient temp in France was no higher than this country for the last two weeks and it happens here anyway so it could be blockage etc as you suggest.

Thanks again for the help.

Cheers

 

[Andy]

230TE engine concerns

Hi Stuart,

I have written quite a length reply in the "I bought a pup 260E" thread. This will apply to you. Don't bother with a compression test. Get a cylinder leakage test carreied out. This will give a more accurate indication as to the state of the engine. In the summer the engine temp will rise quickly. But it should stop at a little over 100 and sit at 90.

Price for an engine vary widely. £800.00 upwards. I have found £800.00 buys you a cheap engine that won't last. From us it would be £1200-1300.


While you are sitting down as I assume most peoples jaws have just dropped. And the wife is trying to bring you around. There a couple of things before you discount moving the vehilce on or indeed repairing it.


1. Is the body work in good condition. If it not and you can see the arches and wings may be flitches will need repair. Then maybe its time to move it on.

2. Is the vehicle mechcanicaly in good condition. No major noises. If yes. Then move it on. If no then ok. But remember on any vehicle you purchase in the future, it will still need routine serviciing and maintenance. So  don't include the things which will come into this bracket.

3. What can you buy for £1400.00. Of the same quality, and you can include what ever price you think you will get for your vehicle.

4. In a lot of cases it better the devil you know than the devil you don't. You could go out and buy ap "pup" to coin the frase of one of the members.


If you are happy with the vehicle in general. Then the above thought process you will need to go through and evaluate.


Hope its some help.


Regards

Andy @ www.mercedesservicing.com

 

[stu thornton]

230TE engine concerns

Andy

Thanks again.  I take your point about the overall quality of the vehicle, the transmission etc is perfect, the bodywork is original but there are some scabs in (non obvious) places which need some relatively inexpensive attention.  My main concern was the engine which, at just over £1k is not what I consider to be silly money.

I am slightly concerned about your comments re pre 89 4 cylinder models.  Is there anything else I should know about pre 88 vehicles which I could investigate (non engine stuff) in making my decision? you mentioned also bodywork.

A couple of questions re the engine:-

1. Is the price you state for a recon/remanufactured engine.  Is it full or short motor?  Would it be exchange.

2. Does the price include fitting, in my younger days I would have done it myself but don`t have the time or inclination now.

3. Would it be a pre 89 spec engine, ie not as reliable as post 89 spec?

Sorry to keep mithering about this but it seems to be my only source of impartial and knowledgable advice.

Cheers

 

[Andy]

230TE engine concerns

Hi Stuart.

Give me a ring on 0121 558-4848, its easier to explain. Or E mail me your number, from my web address and I will ring you.

Regards

Andy @ www.mercedesservicing.com

 

[stu thornton]

230TE engine concerns

Andy

I was thinking that myself.  I`ll give you a call.  Its a bit difficult at the minute due to work load, but as soon as I have a minute I`ll give you a ring.

Cheers

 

[NormanB]

230TE engine concerns

Andy

Can I prevail on your good nature to follow on yr advice previously posted and I quote :

I have written quite a length reply in the "I bought a pup 260E" thread. This will apply to you. Don't bother with a compression test. Get a cylinder leakage test carreied out. This will give a more accurate indication as to the state of the engine.

Unquote

I have searched every which way and cannot find the thread you refer to...........

My questions are how is a cylinder leakage test actually done, does it take special tools, does it test individual cylinders or is just measuring crankcase pressure/flow?  I assume the reference data/tolerances are stealership secrets?

Grateful for your time, expertise and patience!

Regards
NormanB

(Edited by NormanB at 8:25 pm on Sep. 30, 2002)


(Edited by NormanB at 8:26 pm on Sep. 30, 2002)

 

[Spike]

230TE engine concerns

Sorry to be bringing you  this info a bit late but this looks like it was an absolute steal.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1769921832

 

[G4VSQ]

230TE engine concerns

I wouldn't jump to conclusions about the engine yet, have a look in the air filter first!

Now I'm the 260E owner who posted the "I've bought a pup" diatribe to the Forum back in June. Then, I was worried because my car was "breathing" a bit, but still running well. It has a very small amount of oil in the oil filter box now after I have covered nearly 6, 000 miles since buying it, but oil consumption is reasonable at 1500 miles per Litre. It is mostly consuming oil via the valve stem oil seals or so it seems. Oil consumption was certainly reduced by switching to Mobil1 0W-40 (but this isn't essential!) This also stopped the rattling when starting from cold and is probably giving the best protection for the money.

So my point is...if it's still runnning reasonably well, isn't smoking excessively, and can pass the MoT on HC content and gross pollution then leave taht engine in place. Definitely keep on servicing it, treat it nicely (no thrashing from cold, give the oil a chance to circulate and -optionally- use a fully synthetic) and it will last for a long time. So what if it's a bit noisy? A good, long journey at a fair speed will shift some of the carbon, and a good service will keep the car running nicely. Eventually it will need a new motor, won't any car! I know that the 4 cylinder cars aren't meant to be as long lived as the 6 cylinder cars (like mine) but don't write it off. And Mr. Gayle has a very good name for doing PROPER servicing of Mercedes (hint!)

In the meantime, relax a bit, and enjoy driving a very nice car. That's what I have learned to do with mine.

Cheers,
Al

 

[Andy]

230TE engine concerns

Hi NormanB

Sorry for taking time to reply. Only just picked up the thread. The cylinder leakage test. This a small unit which measures the amount of lost compressed air which is lost when it is piped into the relevant cylinder.

First the piston is set to TDC. The valves closed. So the cylinder is set on the compression stroke. The machine is connected via the spark plug hole. Compressed air if then feed via the spark plug hole. The guage on the machine usually is marked in percentages. Upto 10% is usually allowed on new engines. Upto 25% is allowed, strictly speaking on worn engines. I usually allow 30-35% any thing above this, you will experience fuel and oil consumption problems. While you have read the guage you then remove the oil filler cap and listen for air loss, OPEN the throttle and listen at the venturi or throttle flap, and at the exhaust tale pipe. Air heard at the exhaust pipe means Exhaust valve, the rest you can guess.

What you have to remember is that the the percentage reading is the amount which is passing past the piston rings or valves and is NOT being used to power the engine. Maybe now people reading this can understand why,uneven idle, cutting out on a lock,poor fuel and oil consumption can be adversley affected.

Heres one for a some of you out there. You have a 190e. Cuts out on a lock. You have tried out every thing. Can't sus it. The cars done a million miles (ok a little exageration) but if the piston rings are worn. The the mixture is getting past the rings. Under load ie on a full lock the engine rpm drops and it can't idle since 50% of what should be driving the piston down and therefore keeping it running is ending up in the sump!!! Ie, 30,40,50% of what you put in the petrol tank may as well be thrown down the drain.

The use of this little machine is vastly underated and under used by garages in general. This is the only Difinitive test for the checking of the serviceabiltiy of an engine. Compression tests can be made to say anything.

Cylinder leakage test there is no mistakes. So long as the piston is on TDC and on the compression stroke.

I hope this has been of some help to you regards

Andy @ www.mercedesservicing.com

 

[NormanB]

230TE engine concerns

Hi Andy

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to supply an extensive and very well explained reply. I now understand.

The only potential drawback of course is it is a 'cold blow' on a 'cold engine' (ie engine not at working temp therefore ring sealing not optimal) but as the method is comparitive to a new engine it is perfectly valid.

I have saved the methodology and will quizz my indy and determine if he's up to it - if he has the kit (I assume it is engine specific (or at least cylinder size ish).

Thanks again Andy - I have just learned so much on this Forum (and I'm an engineer too!).

NormanB