4 x 4s OK in accidents?

[johnmc]

Hi,
Strange weekend. Two data points have changed my views on 4 x 4 safety.
We had a small snow shower on the motorway on Friday night, and an ML
in the outside lane seemed to slide into the central reservation, then flipped over it landing on it's roof on the outside lane of the opposite side. I've seen cars hit the kerb before, but bounce off. Very bizarre, almost like a high jumper at the athletics doing a "western roll" over the barrier, maybe due to the higher centre of gravity. Don't know how the driver did, she had to be cut out.

Then I pick up auto express and see an article where a landrover (TD5) was crashed into an Espace, and the Landrover lost, suffering intrusion into the driver's space but the Espace cabin stayed intact.

I have heard that death rates amongst 4x4 drivers are higher than cars due to a higher number of single vehicle accidents like the ML above. Does the 4x4 driver have a false sense of security and maybe drive too fast in bad weather? No idea what to think. I felt certain that a 4x4 would be as good as a saloon for safety, now I'm not so sure.

John

 

[SLinKyjoe]

obviously a 4X4 will be better in snow as it has 4x4. but that should not mean they can be driven fast in poor conditions. they should be sensible.

if you get the angle right, just about any car will go over, but a 4x4 has a higher c of g, so it it is less stable. this should be obvious to the drivers, again it probably isnt.

the LRdefender itself is not built with crash protection so i can see how one would be worse, but converserly they are as strong as old boots too. so you dont want to crash into one. and thats where the bigger issue lies. as 4X4's are higher up, when they do hit other cars, they tend to ride over into the passenger compartments of lower cars.

That said, imagine driving into something in a smart?

 

[television]

I was shocked to see that the tyres on those things cost £200 + each, its getting to the point that the tyres on these things will soon be worth more than the car.

Malcolm

 

[davidsl500]

The next 5th Gear is covering a test smash between a 4x4 and an MPV - probably the same test.

 

[robbi-wan]

I watched an article on the news a while back which was v.interesting.
MIRA conducted some tests on new cars (and the tests were shown on telly!) and one of the tests involved driving a new 4x4 into a new micra grin: one less to get stuck behind!) and at only 10mph the micra was so badly damaged relative to the vehicle cost, that it was written off!!

The height of the bumpers relative to each other was a major factor in the damage caused, but also the face that many new small cars have no re-inforcing beams where they are needed.

Unfortunately - 4x4's seem to be designed only to protect occupants, rather than other cars and pedestrians - which may explain why some people driving them feel that they are invincible.

check this out
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/ratings.php?id1=9

 

[angus falconer]

Unfortunately - 4x4's seem to be designed only to protect occupants, rather than other cars and pedestrians - which may explain why some people driving them feel that they are invincible.

Yes, they are inherently unstable and much more likely to crash....and when they do inevitably crash they are far more likely to killl or maim the occupants of normal cars. Forget the emmisions - this is the real anti-social angle of these machines.

 

[Cheltenhamshire]

Lets not forget of course that the same rules seem to apply the further up the automotive food chain you go, after all who is going to win when a 44 tonne lorry hits you???

People getting a sense of superority over another because they are in a 4x4 is so stupid it beggars belief, everyone needs to think when they are driving no-one is safe from juggernauts and when I hear of accidents on the radio over 50% have a van or lorry involved.

 

[psmart]

People getting a sense of superority over another because they are in a 4x4 is so stupid it beggars belief

Here Here! Anyone buying a 4x4 to stick their nose up in the air, lauding it over others deserves sheer contempt! I hate these f*ing b*es on the school run delivering their over pampered bambinos to a school, only chosen because it is superior to the local comprehensive!

I drive my 4x4 at high speed (125mph), in snow and ice, on roads you can call bendy (alpine hairpins) and never had an issue (out driving all 'mortal cars), although Im acutely aware that should I flip, my Lamella roof wont offer me any protection! I compensate, by using high quality winter tyres. By the way Television, I only payed EUR800 for 4 Continental M+S 17R60/255's fitted, and thats from the Austrians, who are notoriously more expensive than their German cousins!

 

[niva441]

Then I pick up auto express and see an article where a landrover (TD5) was crashed into an Espace, and the Landrover lost, suffering intrusion into the driver's space but the Espace cabin stayed intact.

The Discovery was a 300 series (facelifted early model, not later TD5) and was designed for 30 mph impact, both cars were travelling at 40. So not surprisingly when crashed at a speed higher than it was designed for it comes off worse. Although considering that it didn't do too badly and the MIRA engineer did say that the test didn't prove the Disco wasn't safe.

 

[television]

By the way Television, I only payed EUR800 for 4 Continental M+S 17R60/255's fitted, and thats from the Austrians, who are notoriously more expensive than their German cousins!

The reason that they are so cheap is that MB over estimated the sales of the ML and 60,000 wheels and tyres for the ML went onto the open market.
Many were sold by Ebay USA where you could buy them by the palet late last year.And I hate to say it but they made in Austria.

Malcolm

 

[psmart]

And I hate to say it but they made in Austria.
Malcolm

...makes sense, just like you can buy a Range Rover cheaper over here than in the UK!!

... but, Im just about to buy 4x285R18 from Merc, complete with Alloy Rim and Tyre for 365EUR a piece for Summer use, (the originals, 275R17 with 5 spoke alloy cost EUR240), so their must be some other reason than Ebay and over supply?

ps) My sincere appologies for my appletives in the earlier post, I was in the Senator lounge in Munich Airport and had one too many Whiskies!

 

[jberks]

I hate these f*ing b*es on the school run delivering their over pampered bambinos to a school

True, most never see anything dirtier than Sainsbury's car park. The Mrs always has a go at me for cleaning and polishing the Jeep. Most of the time it's caked in mud as she charges up and down some farm track or other. She likes to keep it that way so people don't mistake her for the 'lunchers' when she's dropping the kids off.

4x4s are less stable, obviously. I wouldn't dare do with the jeep, what a regularly do with the merc. Its a different car built for different use. Unfortunatley, they are sold as normal cars and some are too stupid realise the difference.

 

[television]

I have gone after the first one, make me cheap to run.

Malcolm

 

[robbi-wan]

Lets not forget of course that the same rules seem to apply the further up the automotive food chain you go, after all who is going to win when a 44 tonne lorry hits you???

Good point but not entirely valid.
There is no better way to move 44 tonnes of stuff than in a mega-wagon (which is what they are for) - whereas most of the 4x4's on the road are owned by idiots with a superiority complex regarding the rest of motoring society, whose sole purpose is posing.

If I needed a 4x4 (for real off road stuff) i would buy a Defender!

rob

PS. I very rarely see a 4x4 with any mud on it. How odd

 

[psmart]

... when you've spent 36Grand++ on a 4x4, mud is the last thing you want on it for any length of time... especially if its a Merc, given their poor paint jobs!

Also, going into mud is not the sole 4x4 definition. Mud, Ice, Snow, Water, Steep Inclines/Decent, Towing etc categorise a good 4x4.

Knowing that people like me are public enemy #1 according to the bible of St. Clarkson, I scratch my head daily thinking what type of car, other than a 4x4 could satisfy:
High speed motorway driving, camping, ice & snow driving, off-road (not as bad as farmers) mud pits towing, gravel driving, mobile office/house, safe, economical, high value retention, etc etc!
You need to combine an S-Class, Sprinter, 4Matic, G-Wagon ... and what do you get... a compromise, called an ML!

How about banning anyone who has a 4x4 which hasnt got a low-range transfer box, or whose low-range box has not been used?

 

[Blobcat]

You need to combine an S-Class, Sprinter, 4Matic, G-Wagon ... and what do you get... a compromise, called an ML!

I think you just designed the R-Class .

From another post in this thread, I don't think that 4x4's are inherently unstable, motorcycles are. I can't remember the last time someone got out of a 4x4 and it fell over .
However you do require different driving skills to make best use of them. Too many people see a big 4x4 and think they can drive them the same as the FWD hatchback they just got out of.
I recommend driving a SWB Series I-III Land Rover on cross plies for awhile.

 

[Silver Arrow]

"I recommend driving a SWB Series I-III Land Rover on cross plies for awhile."

Actually, these are the best for real off road, particularly with the chunky side treads. These will see of any fancy RRs with road tyres.

However, on the pavement the results are dire, especially coupled with the series III braking system....

Still... I wish I had been in my old series III safari rather than the coupe when I contacted my motorway cone in the centre of the sole lane. (or even my RR with proper bull bars).

 

[psmart]

Actually, these are the best for real off road, particularly with the chunky side treads. These will see of any fancy RRs with road tyres.

It is amazing what a decent set of off-road tyres will do. When I first got the ML, Merc sent me on a 4x4 course (with a load of la-die-da's). The trainee's where in road-going ML's, the trainer in an ML with thin chunky tyres. The trainer was forever pulling the la-die-da's ML's out of the quagmire! I won the prize of the day, a breather adapter, allowing my ML to wade upto top-of-bonnet depth water

The la-die-da's... only there for the slap up meal and rub noses!

Moral of the story, the ML will get down with the best in mud, but make sure its got thin chunky off-road tyres.

 

[Blobcat]

"I recommend driving a SWB Series I-III Land Rover on cross plies for awhile."

Actually, these are the best for real off road, particularly with the chunky side treads. These will see of any fancy RRs with road tyres.

However, on the pavement the results are dire, especially coupled with the series III braking system....

Still... I wish I had been in my old series III safari rather than the coupe when I contacted my motorway cone in the centre of the sole lane. (or even my RR with proper bull bars).

I agree about the off-road bit, I should have stated it was the on-road experience that people should experience. I sold my SWB SIII last year :sad:
LR have invited me to one of their off road driving days so I'm going to have some fun . I did a Hummer H1 off road driving test in Toronto a few years ago and LR were there as well. Hummer had laid the course and certain parts were marked 'Hummer' only. I ommited to read that when I went out in the V8 90 defender. The "instructor" was not used to LR's and could not believe that it would get through the course, but it did .

 

[Sanny]

Read the aforementioned article in Auto Express and saw the 5th Gear programme which looked at a crash between the Discovery and Espace. Pity that the makers took a new Espace adn and old Discovery for the comparison. I defy anyone to crash an old car against a new one and find that the newer one isn't safer.

Bad driving is bad driving and it doesn't really matter what vehicle you are in. 4x4s get a lot of criticism but the biggest problem is usually bad driving and inappropriate type of vehicle. School runs get a lot of the blame but not all 4x4s are used on the school run.

I have just ordered a 4x4 and it has to do all the following jobs;

Some off-road driving (nothing major just muddy sites - at work)
Transport the family and associated luggage/3 bikes
Be smart enough to transport clients to site meetings
Have a higher seating position (ease of access) to allow for a back injury caused by someone driving a smaller/ecologically friendly car driving into me at speed because they failed to stop at a junction

I used to have an E class estate which was longer than the car I have just ordered (more congestion), less economical (by around 5mpg) and couldn't cope with muddy tracks.

No other vehicle I looked at could do all of these things. I also note that the latest AutoExpress has an article which says the environmentalists favourite the Toyota Prius may be less ecologically friendly over the whole life.

In short not all 4x4 drivers are women on the the school run and bad drivers are just bad drivers irrespective of which car they drive.