Advice on Box-Junction penalty charge...

Chazchuzzlewitt

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Hello, haven't posted in a while but was wondering if anyone had any advice of penalty charge notices- I got stuck half-in one after the traffic crossing the junction stopped unexpectedly. I want to appeal as the traffic was not stationary when my car entered the junction, but was wondering if you lose your appeal does the fine go up to it's original amount? (it's halved if you pay within 2 weeks)... also they got the colour of my car wrong... does this have any impact?

cheers...
 

Alex M Grieve

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Hello, haven't posted in a while but was wondering if anyone had any advice of penalty charge notices- I got stuck half-in one after the traffic crossing the junction stopped unexpectedly. I want to appeal as the traffic was not stationary when my car entered the junction, but was wondering if you lose your appeal does the fine go up to it's original amount? (it's halved if you pay within 2 weeks)... also they got the colour of my car wrong... does this have any impact?

cheers...

On your first point, the problem with these Yellow Boxes is that you may enter them if you can see that your exit is clear, or will be for example when oncoming traffic recedes and you are then free to make a right turn.

You are then a hostage to the incompetence of the driver in front of you, or anyone who might nip in to park in, or obstruct the space which you planned using.

"Pay up in 2 weeks" and only "pay half" is a cheap trick, just to discourage appeals. If you feel you can argue the case, I would go for it.

The true cost of the fine should not increase if you "lose", but then is the true cost the higher or the lower "discounted" sum?

Sadly, "they" are judge and jury. Good luck - tell us how you get on. I am currently 2-0 up against the Metropolitan authorities. It can be done.
 

mikestrivens

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If they got the colour of the car wrong you could argue that a clone had transgressed. Just a thought.
 

jberks

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If they got the colour of the car wrong you could argue that a clone had transgressed. Just a thought.

The incorrect colour comes from the DVLA I suspect. They'll have taken the details from your reg no. Check your log book. Atthe end of the day it's your car and they have a pic of it. You'd have to submit to the court that you weren't there and that would be contempt.

As for appealing. technically you were stationary in a box junction. The rules state that you can't enter the junction unless your exit, and route to it, is clear. Ok, I agree this is completely impossible in the real world but since when did the real world feature in the law? As you entered the box when there were cars in front, between you and the exit, your exit was not clear and you committed the offence.
I fully understand and support your desire to appeal, but I'd take a cold, hard, unemotional look at your defence first - otherwise you're simply blowing the 'discount' for nothing. As Alex says, they're judge and jury and don't want to let you off, so you need to give them a strong argument and I'm just not convinced you have one.

Have a look at this and see if it gives any inspiration and if you do appeal - good luck.
http://www.ticketfighter.co.uk/yellow.htm
 

robertjrt

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Where was the Box Junction? It was not Proctor Street by any chance? This was the five sided Box Junction that had a side to many!

I understand there there is a 50/50 chance of winning an appeal.
 
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Chazchuzzlewitt

Chazchuzzlewitt

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The junction was on Putney high street, typically it was a white van that I let into traffic a few moments earlier that I ended up stuck behind... so much for good karma. I'd like to see the photo/video footage but that would mean an inconvenient trip to Wandsworth council.

btw, the colour is listed in my log book correctly (green).
 

Alex M Grieve

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The junction was on Putney high street, typically it was a white van that I let into traffic a few moments earlier that I ended up stuck behind... so much for good karma. I'd like to see the photo/video footage but that would mean an inconvenient trip to Wandsworth council.

btw, the colour is listed in my log book correctly (green).

Is that the junction of Putney High Street and the South Circular? I won a case there in 1977 when I was nicked for not complying with the mandatory no right turn sign. I dealt by correspondence but was represented by a man from the AA who did not sound optimistic before hand but did what I asked him to do. We were "severely let off".

I wonder if that junction is a "cash cow" for the local authority? It is offset if you are on the South Circular, especially West to East. Tricky for the locals, but a real "killing ground" for us yokels from out of town - the amount of roadside furniture and signage is quite unreasonable IMO, and bound to cause confusion.
 

D1gger5

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They need to get loads of those box junction cameras and fine the drivers around Bristol as there are so many yellow box blockers that it becomes like the M25:-
Aztec West (M5 J 17)
Shabby Wood on the ring road
Cribbs Causeway (M5 J17)
I never go to central Bristol but travel to South Wales to go to the bank/shops as it is so much easier (and cheaper even though it's £5.40 on the Bridge/Crossing).

Plus all those middle/outside lane hoggers on dual carriageways/motorways.

Sorry to hear that you got caught in another londoner robbing scam (I hope it isn't too painful to pay/appeal to these legalised robbers - its black and white not grey).
 

Myros

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were you turning right

if so, the rule is reversed, and you may enter the box and must fill it, if intending to turn right and are only prevented from doing so by oncoming traffic, or other cars waiting to turn in front of you. You mustn't overflow the box though.
If you didn't actually stop when going ahead, then it's very tricky. if you kept up a crawl through the junction without acually stopping or falling foul of the lights change, then you didn't technically obstruct. It might be arguable if you hire a good mouth-piece. Might be cheaper to pay up as well.
 

SQ_W211

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I won the appeal as I had genuine case. someone blocked meas i was going through the junction box, I pleaded that my lane was moving and the guy jumped in front of me and blocked me.

they wrote back that they will wipe out the penalty charge
 

ncooper

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On your first point, the problem with these Yellow Boxes is that you may enter them if you can see that your exit is clear, or will be for example when oncoming traffic recedes and you are then free to make a right turn.

You are then a hostage to the incompetence of the driver in front of you, or anyone who might nip in to park in, or obstruct the space which you planned using.

Not quite,you may enter the box junction ONLY when your exit is clear,UNLESS turning right.
If you intend going straight on,or left,I suppose and you enter before your exit is clear,ONLY THEN do you become"a hostage to the incompetence of the driver in front of you"
I drive a vehicle which is 16.5 metres in length,so I have had some practice in these matters.
I would respectfully suggest that you simply pay the fine.

Regards,
Nick.
 
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Alex M Grieve

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Not quite,you may enter the box junction ONLY when your exit is clear,UNLESS turning right.
If you intend going straight on,or left,I suppose and you enter before your exit is clear,ONLY THEN do you become"a hostage to the incompetence of the driver in front of you"
I drive a vehicle which is 16.5 metres in length,so I have had some practice in these matters.
I would respectfully suggest that you simply pay the fine.

Regards,
Nick.

From a reliable source Nick. Your move.

In the United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland (where, in both places, cars drive on the left), drivers may enter the box and wait when they want to turn right and are stopped from doing so only by oncoming traffic or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.[1]
 

Alex M Grieve

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Ticketfighter.co.uk

A fuller excerpt from the appropriate regulation:

Regulation 29(2) states:
PART II
SIGNIFICANCE OF BOX JUNCTION MARKINGS

Interpretation of Part II of Schedule

6. In this Part of this Schedule -
  • (a) "box junction" means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044; and

    (b) a reference (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst part of it is within the box junction.
Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044
7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.


(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -
  • (a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and

    (b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
Ticketfighter.co.uk has studied this as an art form. Well worth reading their ideas - or Google them.
 

ncooper

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Absolutely right,Alex,I believe that is what I wrote.
My point being that unless there is ALREADY room beyond the junction for one's vehicle,entering the box junction is an offence,unless,of course you are turning right.
Entering the box in anticipation of there being enough room is fraught with danger as the OP appears to have discovered.

Regards,
Nick.
 

Xtractorfan

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Then when you enter one of these yellow traps it would be prudent to switch on the right hand indicator , and if the exit is clear then casually change your mind and go straight ahead.. Oh and Alex, can you post the circumstances as described in paragraph 8, there seems to be exclusions in there..
 

robertjrt

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You should have received in your PNC photographs of the offending traffic violation. There should also be a link to the video footage.

You may not enter a box junction if your way ahead is not clear, however, you may wait in a box junction if you are turning and are held up by oncoming traffic, or an Emergency vehicle, anything with a blue light bringing you to a stop!

Search the Internet, there are several sites who deal pacifically with the Highway Robbers called Councils. I expect your box junction has a "history" to it, most of them have, Proctor Street is another money spinner, but, not as good as by Kings Cross station, there is a small space just outside the station entrance with a small sign, if you stop to read it, too late, thank you that will be £60 please. The rest of the road is festooned with yellow and red lines, all with CCTV coverage. Unless, of course you have a council essential users badge.:shock:
 

Alex M Grieve

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Then when you enter one of these yellow traps it would be prudent to switch on the right hand indicator , and if the exit is clear then casually change your mind and go straight ahead.. Oh and Alex, can you post the circumstances as described in paragraph 8, there seems to be exclusions in there..

Sorry,

I lost sight of this thread when my system ground to a halt last evening - clearly others carried on accessing, but I could not.

I shall certainly try, but which para 8 do you have in mind? :confused:
 

wheeliebin

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Maybe a fair cop

Sounds like you did exactly what these junction boxes are designed to stop. However if you want to investigate further I believe that you can purchase the video evidence (I did for a cost of £10 from TfL). It backed up my recollection of events and I successfully appealed.
 
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Mic

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Sounds like you did exactly what these junction boxes are designed to stop. However if you want to investigate further I believe that you can purchase the video evidence (I did for a cost of £10 from TfL). It backed up my recollection of events and I successfully appealed. .

3.5yrs. too late

Mic
 
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