Ahhhhgggg! - W124 E320 intermittent misfire is back!

[maxicab]

:roll:
OMG!.....Just when I'd finally decided that it was safe to claim victory (see my very long running post W124 - Coil or ECU?), the intermittent misfire has returned to haunt me. It appeared to splutter only very slightly, very briefly, a couple of times early in the week, but then ran roughly on 4 cylinders for a good 5 minutes on Thursday at the end of a 12 mile trip including a longish wait at tickover at a level crossing (and only abruptly stopped misbehaving when I arrived home, decided to wiggle and fiddle with things a bit with misfiring continuously going; tried some of the previous suspects with no effect, then took off the fuel cap (a second time) and then hey presto, suddenly the misfire disappeared.
I went downtown to get some fuel as I thought that maybe there had been a vapour lock of some sort as the fuel was very low and I indeed managed to then fit in 57.5 Litres. It ran perfectly on Friday, but today (Sat) it misfired again for a few seconds when pulling away from a junction a mile or so from home after cold starting, when the car would have been barely luke warm.
I have a hunch it might be something to do with having applied the brakes somewhat heavily just prior to it happening on both occasions. Is it possible that the servo assist could rob the inlet manifold of negative pressure, cause a temporary change in manifold conditions that makes the ECU go into a Limited Operating System (LOS) (Limp Home Mode)? Could there be a vacuum leak which is somehowwonly manifest at times (I can't reproduce the effect now on testing)?
Is anyone out there able to help me on code readers for this model, as it strikes me that if I had a suitable fault code reader in the boot, next time it happens I could whip out the code reader and check for fault codes.
I'm opening up a new thread on this as I think the previous one was long enough. I'll now summarise the events to date:

Noticed intermittent misfire from around October 2007.
Took it to Indy specialist late Nov 2007. Pronounced as needing new wiring loom for £950. Decided not to proceed just yet and to wait and see as the loom didn't look too bad to me.
Continued to occasionally misfire, but becoming more and more frequent, so I took it to a local Bosch Centre for fault diagnosis. Original fault codes were D7, dwell control and 22, Oxygen sensor too high; advised probably due to wiring loom breakdown.
Bit the bullet and new OEM engine wiring loom by the Bosch garage in Jan 08, as was advised against driving the car any distance at all for fear of ECU damage. (Only slight issue with it is a "spare" unused loom connector next to the coolant temp sensor connector. As best as I can find out, this is because mine has a blanking plug next to the thermostat in place of a second sensor as it has no air con. I don't think this matters, but I'd like to be surer).
Ran well for a few weeks, then misfiring returned. Back to Bosch Centre, couldn't find cause of problem although it did appear for them, New HT (OEM) direct coil to plug connectors x3 Feb 08. They suggested probable ECU fault.
Gave up on them and since then:
New HT (EuroCP) long leads x3 March 08.
New grub screws x3 that electrically hold coils to engine metal March 08
New Bosch spark plugs (resistive type) x6 and new Bosch coils x3 June 08
Fixed up somewhat burned looking wiring into engine side of fuse box June 08, noticed that heater fuse was melting its flying fuseholder, indicating excessive heater current drain. Bought a new heater air filter but have not inserted it yet
OVP examined June 08, appears OK, 9 pin single fuse type, previously replaced in 2002 in France, part no. A 000 540 67 45 was used and still in place now.
Fuel filter found to be not changed since 2000 at 50K, so changed in June 2008 by another Indy specialist, who also tried to obtain fault codes and found there were none recorded.
July 2008. Full B service at Indy specialist, no problems seen and no misfires seen and no faults recorded on their STAR diagnostics. Told me that this model does not store codes (!!!???) and that the problem is probably due to an ECU fault.
I discovered that Resistive spark plugs may cause running problems for this engine, so changed all the plugs to new non-resistive Beru plugs. Car seemed to run better and no further misfires until now.
Activated charcoal prefilter and filter (8384&8382 ?are these relevant) never changed.
Purge Valve (thing with MOT on it) never changed.
Throttle actuator looks OK, wiring looks OK; appears never changed.
Crank sensor never changed.
Lambda sensor never changed.
ECU is unchanged, though its had a good few wiggles. One missing fixing bolt (?possible electrical grounding) noted and then replaced June 2008. All electrical ECU connectors taken off and checked. All look OK, no sign of water damage or arcing/pin rot. My researches lead me to believe that a pure ECU fault could not cause such an intermittent fault as this, although a faulty ECU plug connection or lead possibly could.

Where do I go from here? Is my vacuum idea of any merit? How can I test for this? Any advice on code readers? Does this model E320 Merc (1995) definitely store its codes which could be checked with a simple LED flash reader? Anyone think I should pull the ECU out and send it off now?

Thanks for your help

David

 

[maxicab]

Could Fuel Octane rating be a factor here?

I always run my car and have done so for years with no previous problems on standard unleaded petrol as available everywhere (usually from Tesco, sometimes from Esso) There has never been any pinking, even on heavy acceleration. But I've just noticed this posting on "the other" UK MB site:

"I have tried several tanks of BP Ultimate unleaded in my 500SEC, and was not impressed. I normally use Shell Optimax, which is 98 RON, and the car runs perfectly. When I use BP Ultimate, which is 97 RON, the car does not run anywhere near as well. Not as bad as regular unleaded, which causes intermittent misfires and roughly idle, but definately not as good as Optimax".

I've just looked up the original handbook for my car and discovered on the Fuels page:

E220, 280,320 with catalytic convertor Unleaded Premium Fuels, at least 95RON/85 MON.

Notes:
To be used temporarily:
Unleaded regular fuels, at least 91 RON/ 82.5 MON.
Engine output can be reduced and consumption can increase.
Avoid driving at full throttle.
Do not add any special additives.
They may lead to increased wear or to engine damage.

So have I been using the wrong fuel the last four years? And could this be my problem? Maybe the clever electronics can compensate for a lower than recommended grade of fuel, so that pinking does not occur?
What do other forum members run their distributorless W124 E220,280 and 320s on?

Thanks, David

 

[maxicab]

Information Borrowed From Petrolprices.com

In the UK, the most common petrol types are:

Ordinary unleaded - 95 RON
Super unleaded - 98 RON (and Leaded Four Star - 98 RON)

Super Fuels
Many of the large petrol companies have launched 'super fuels' - petrols and diesels that have a higher research octane level. These fuels are said to increase power in many vehicles, deliver less pollution than regular fuels and help to maintain a cleaner engine. Amongst these 'super fuels' are Tesco's Super Unleaded 99 Octane petrol, supplied by Greenergy, now sold at many stations across the UK and also BP's Ultimate 102 Unleaded which is currently the most advanced, high-performance petrol you can buy on UK forecourts.


Using Super Fuels
One of our users commented that using higher octane fuel than your engine requires actually gives no benefit and may be a waste of money. This is because virtually NO engines require 98 RON over 95, and the market for 'super' fuels seems to be based on people's misunderstanding of octane ratings and the placebo effect of filling up with 'more powerful' fuel - making motorists think their engine is running better in some way.

What do the fuel companies say then, to justify the "increased power" claims for the super grade fuels? Some companies say that while all fuels contain cleaning additives, 'super' fuels contain more or better detergents to keep the injectors cleaner than standard fuel. Others say the fuel is a few percent denser which gives slightly more power per litre. These benefits may be marginal though in comparison to the extra cost involved so it is worth ensuring that your engine will actually benefit before filling up.

Some engines actually do need higher octane fuel, such as race engines with very high compression and some turbocharged engines, such as the import version of the Nissan Skyline. Also, a few vehicles, such as the new BMW K1200R motorbike, can sense knock and adjust their engine tuning to take advantage of higher grade fuels. Another user commented that the 2004 BMW 330 also does this, according to the driver's handbook it makes 231 BHP on 98 octane and 221 BHP on 95. This ability is apparently widespread amongst German performance cars using Bosch / Siemens electronic engine controls.

This last bit seems of particular interest - and agrees with previous posts a while back on this forum, with many UK users impressed with their experience of using Shell Optimax (and Shell V-Power) in their various Mercs compared to supermarket regular petrol - though no-one here reported misfires on regular 95 Ron petrol.

David

 

[Juddian]

Oh blimey David, and there you were a shining light to all of us....no seriously, sorry to hear that the dreaded intermittent misfire has returned in all its glory.

I've only ever used standard unleaded in my 320 x 124, but i did try a couple of bottles of octane booster for the hell of it, and can't say i noticed any difference at all, the vehicle has performed faultlessly since the wiring loom was replaced and the subsequent damage to the ECU repaired.
Thats not to say that i don't have my heart in my mouth every time i start the thing knowing just how fragile the ignition side of these engines are.

Now where do you go from here, you mentioned storing of codes, well i have seen my indy read the stored codes from his diagnostics machine and clear them, so i don't see why your car shouldn't do the same.
To be fair, the stored codes didn't lead my indy straight to the ECU, but by a process of eliminating other causes he concluded that the ecu was the only thing left in his chain of diagnoses, but he is very old school (which suits me nicely as i like old school).

When my ECU came back from repair it had a note attached to the unit suggesting a possible short on the wiring side/coil problem (by then my indy had found the damaged wiring and had changed the loom anyway) and to check/repair siad fault before using the freshly repaired unit.

Strange that your car stopped misfiring when you removed the fuel cap,
does that require further investigation.

I'm no mechanic, your misfire sounds like mine, but more intermittent whereas mine came and stayed, could the ecu have a bad connection inside i wonder, i'm certainly not brave enough to open it, and wouldn't know what to look for anyway.

 

[maxicab]

sympathy appreciated!

Thanks for the sympathy Juddian. I was certainly quite aghast when it started misfiring - couldn't even quite believe it at first after 3 months of the jolly beast running absolutely perfectly.
Presumably it wasn't the renewed spark plugs or the ECU bolt that made the difference in July after all, but more likely the changed fuel filter; so the current cause being something to do with the fuel supply is suspicious. The fuel level was low as I said, the fuel cap removal seemed to cure the misfire (even though no change the first time I tried that although there was a huge rush of air as I undid the cap). I'm going to try high octane branded fuel (probably Shell Optimax) with plenty of detergents for a while now and see how things go. For now I've put some Redex in the tank as I'm nearly full up with Tesco 95 RON regular fuel.

Maybe the misfire has still occurred on the first 25 miles or so on the new tank of fuel not because of lower grade fuel but because of gunge in the fuel lines. How easy is it to drain the fuel tank anyone when I get near the end of the current tank?

Thanks for the info on the fault codes - that certainly agrees with what I believe and understand is the case with these cars. It makes me doubt the 2 local Indies a bit though! I'm still hoping it's not the ECU, but I'm getting nearer and nearer to the day that I pull it out and send it off to the IOW chap.

"Could the ecu have a bad connection inside i wonder, i'm certainly not brave enough to open it, and wouldn't know what to look for anyway".
-Me neither Juddian, but it certainly is a possibility, which I will probably have to face if I get nowhere with the fancy fuels or draining the tank.

I would still love to try and sort out a LED code reader to try out myself as I'm irritated to keep on paying for diagnostic tests that show no faults!

Thanks again for your help

David

 

[Gazzaj]

Had an Imprezza and a W124 E300 with similiar issue, it may strike you as odd what I'm going to say and you may not believe this could be the root of your problem , but we over analyised the problem to death, and it turned out to be the fuel filter, I couldnt believe it but it was, the blockages where effecting the fuel pressure, therefore effecting the firing on certain cylinders. Its worth a try, as the slamming on of the brakes could have dislodged some more waste and then started the pressure drop again also when the tanks are low this is when it is far more noticeable. Also my W124 E300 had a misfire under load. that turned out to be the second of the two fuel pumps was down on pressure too. Its a cheap fix, fuel filter is £16.00 from Europart, the pumps if required are £46.00 each. All I can say is it was an instant cure to both cars, try it.

 

[Bolide]

Interesting. Re-reading this thread my first thought was fuel system

I think it might be worth cleaning both fuel pumps, checking the relays & power supply to the pumps and making sure the tank pickup strainer is not blocked. I would think all this is DIY-able

Fuel starvation wouldn't record any error codes, would be intermittent and would be difficult to track down. Sound like your problem?

I was reading through the transcript of the BA038 report and the methodology they used to try and track down the cause of the crash was interesting. They have no direct evidence of what happened, apart from cavitation damage to the HP pumps, so they tried to recreate what they thought might have happened

In a similar fashion you could try killing power to the fuel pumps and see how fast problems occur, what it does to the way the car drives and how fast the problem goes away after you apply power again

You could also hook up a fuel pressure gauge and watch the fuel pressure when it misfires - that might be instructive

Halfords make a very simple neon spark indicator you fit between the spark plug and the HT lead. You could fit a set of 6 and wait for the car to misfire again - but it's a difficult engine to do this test on as it's a twin cam with deep plug pockets

Bottom line is, I think it has to be spark or fuel. As you can't definitively state that either is perfect it's a difficult problem to diagnose

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[television]

If the car has two fuel pumps, disconnect each one in turn and make sure that the engine runs on one, thats an easy check

 

[E280V6]

Same problems

HI maxicab and Alembic6,

I know it is no comfort, but it seems I’m having the same kind of trouble as you are with my 280E V6 petrol.

I had a similar occurrence eight years ago, two years after I bought it –second hand-. It started misfiring, going on with 4 cylinders, and stalling at junctions, traffic lights, and then vanishing for no reason at all. Really annoying, specially because it just vanished the first couple of times I had secured a slot with the dealer. By the way, my Merc –older than yours- does store codes, or so the dealer guys tell me.

I went to the local dealer, quite decent chaps, and after reading codes –sorry I did not at the time think of asking for still less recording them – and fiddling with some ideas it came down to being the “valve for the recirculation of gasses” and the air flow meter.

After that it run smooth for the past seven years, and of last year it started misfiring very occasionally, just a couple of hiccups and vanish, until three days ago when it came back with a vengeance.

I’ve been seeking for hints round some forums, no solid leads. That’s how I came upon your story.

The last hint I’ve got is this:

The WIS says this might be related to "lack of air-tighness inside the fuel pressure regulator” This is the part in question, I haven’t got the part ref nr. But I’ll try to get it.



Descripción: regulador de presion

Tamaño: 43.86 KB
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Re. the ECU, I just wouldn’t settle for that for now. Same as yourself I feel this is too random to come from the ECU, and certainly in my case it was NOT a faulty ECU running OK for eight years (I just hope this will come back to bite me now just for mouthing it).

I also have a E320 CDI V6 which went once into LOS because there was a hole in a hose affecting the flow meter. The hole was small enough to cause the LOS to come and go intermittently but the result was that the engine revved up to 3000 rpms but did not stall. Fixed the hose and problem was gone. I don’t know whether this would cause our W124s to stall...

I’ll go back to the dealer if I can’t find a solution on my own and will let you know about the results. This time I'll aske them for the codes.

Regards,

 

[Gazzaj]

I had error codes with mine, I had them re set after the fuel pumps were replaced, and the filter. My filter I took off was honestly black, I have photo's the fuel was jet black like 100k mile oil, with grit in it, some of which was like pebbles (I'll forward the photo). And one pump was running but was FUBAR'D inside.
The Pumps should be heard only to prime up, if you can hear them full time then its a sure sign one or both are not working.
The lack of pressure was causing 2 3 & 5 To missfire. It has never done it since, and the car is running so well. I had an audi technician Going through it, and we over analyised it to death. went through ignition, electronic, timing, breathing, wiring, etc, because the signs didnt really point to something so ****** obvious. Its worth looking into from my experience, I know what your going through!

 

[Gazzaj]

Heres is a picture, the fuel in it was so black it reflected the wall behind it, The container was clean and the gravel you can see was all in the filter.

 

[maxicab]

I think we're getting somewhere here!

Wow thanks guys, thats been a really great help. In summary:

My suggestion of a linking of the misfire onset to heavy braking (and also I've realised since, corners and inclines) is very possibly linkable to a fuel impurity/supply pressure problem. This fits in with the other hints and the earlier improvements when the fuel filter was changed in late June.
An ECU fault is indeed an unlikely (but not impossible) cause to explain this very intermittent misfire problem.
Using 95 Octane fuel should be OK
Fault codes ARE stored in W124s
You may well not (but in some cases may?) get fault codes with a fuelling problem.

There are a few ways to test for a fuel supply problem, which I can probably do. These will both test the functioning of the pump(s) and line pressure and also try to simulate what the car would run like if fuel pump/s were faulty.

It should be possible to fully drain the tank when it's near empty.

But I'm still a bit unclear on whether it's the fuel impurities which are blocking the fuel filter and/or fouling up the fuel pump(s), thereby starving the injectors; or if the impurities are somehow getting through the pump(s) and filter and are delivered to the injectors and are directly starving or blocking them. If it is the latter, presumably only water could get through the filter?
In which case "neutralising " the water with isopropyl alcohol seems to be an option - this seems commonly done in cold climates in winter to remove (condensation) water from petrol tanks and fuel lines - you just add half a litre of IPA to your tank and literally drive the tank clean (stops fuel lines freezing up too! But if it is debris like fuel contaminants such as rust and dirt, shouldn't these be being caught by the fuel filter, which having been just newly changed in June, is unlikely to be clogged (yet!) - unless there's an awful lot of muck in my tank?
And I'm a bit puzzled as to whether you can really separate out a fuel vs a spark problem so easily as Nick suggests by monitoring the HT leads - I thought the ECU was clever enough to deliberately cut the current to those cylinders where the injectors weren't being supplied with adequate fuel? So a chicken and egg scenario where you wouldn't know what happenened first, and would be inclined to blame the spark! As I've replaced EVERYTHING at least once on the electrical spark side already, apart from the ECU itself, I kind of have to assume at the moment that it's not the intermittent lack of spark which is the primary cause.
But I do have the idea that if I could prove, for instance, that it is cylinders 5and 6 which are stopping firing when the misfire occurs, rather than for instance the 2 cylinders supplied elecrically by the rear coil, that this would prove a fuel and not an electrical problem. Is that correct? I'm guessing the 2 cylinders furthest from the pressure reg valve would be the ones affected by low fuel pressure?
Thanks again for all your collective insights and help, David

 

[Gazzaj]

You say there was an improvement in June when the filter was changed? It’s easy to tell if one is not working, but it’s very hard to spot if one is working, but not working efficiently.
Mine was noticeable due to the primer noise you hear at start up, was noticeable all the time, a quiet but constant drone from the back. I used a guy called Dave Foy at Autoscan Diagnostics in Lancashire, he specialises in older diagnostics, he does alot on computer, and alot using old methods and voltage readings.

The other thing to note is, these pumps are tight! And are connected to a very thin skinned metal fuel line, which is rigid, and can prove very hard work to remove Due to not being able to heat the dam things up!! (Well you could try if you wanted, but I stayed away from that!!) I took mine to a garage with the pumps, and the charged me £15.00 to fit tem, it truly wasnt worth the hassle and risk of breaking anything, rolling around on concrete, and getting drowned in petrol!

Also you replaced the filter and there was an improvement, just a suggestion and I don’t wish to insult your intelligence, but is it in the correct way? Is it the correct size and through put? (There are two different ones for the 3litre engine upwards, so I was told by Euro Parts when I bought mine, and they can be put in backwards!)
As for which two are effected, I would say logically it probably would be those two, but from a technical point of view it might be different! So I wouldnt know.

I didnt drain my tank when I did mine, and you can see by the above filter, it might have been wise, although mine runs like a dream now!

 

[maxicab]

Reversed?

Thanks. It would be possible I suppose that the fuel filter was put in backwards, but it was done by a local Indy with a decent local reputation - and although he was new to me he seemed to know what he was doing - and it has been running perfectly for 3 months since until a week ago. Before its replacement I had had roughly weekly misfires. It makes no odd noises in the fuel pump/filter region with or without the misfire present. That Indy and the original Indy at the subsequent B service reckoned the fuel pumps were fine (don't know if there is one or two pumps as can't get the car backwards up my ramps!).
Incidentally I have had no misfires or even the slightest hesitation for 6 days now - whether due to Redex or not is hard to say yet!
Bolide mentioned a fuel tank pick up strainer. It certainly sounds feasible that this could be blocked. How easy is this to access? Would the tank have to be empty for this? Can I cause any damage to the FI system by running the car until completely empty?

Thanks, David

 

[E280V6]

Update

Hi everyone

Just gave up on DIY-ing my merc and took it to the local dealer. By the way the :evil: b.tch was stalling at every junction on my way to the dealer and just purred along like a dream when I tried to show the shopfloor boss what the issue was. I mentioned to the guy that I had already been investigating the issue and told me that sadly there was quite a large number of isues that could cause it -as we know- and a long list of known problems affecting the W124s (wiring looms, OVP relays, filter & pump issues... you name it). I asked the guy to record for me the errod codes registrered and agreed to do it, but warbed that code recording in W124s was quite vague when compared to W210s or alter models. I asked them to give me a quotation for the repair, as given its age I'm not sure I'm prepared to cough up too much even though I'm quite fond of the car (it was my first Merc, you know) the wifey isn't, and that might be an uphill battle. I'll keep yopu posted.

Regards,

 

[maxicab]

Hey thanks for the update. Mine too has been playing up again of late, after running well for a couple of weeks. Redex into the tank, 500 mL of Isopropyl alcohol to mop up any water in the bottom of the tank and high octane fuel (Shell V-Power) have all made no difference. And taking on and off the petrol cap when it is actually doing its misfire trick has made no difference on subsequent occasions, so maybe that was a red herring. And the misfire has started happening on the straight and on the flat, as well as on uphills and downhills. Generally, but not always when the tank is below 1/4 full.
I've been reading about oxygen (lamda) sensors on a UK Lambdapower website and I am now convinced that I have a poorly performing or intermittent O2 sensor - so much so that I have ordered a replacement. At £100 it would cost more than this for a garage to try and diagnose it. As one of my very original fault codes last December was "22 - oxygen sensor too high" and I'm unconvinced the new engine wiring loom made any difference at all, it seems a good place to restart. Maybe the cold nights lately are upsetting the lambda?
If this still fails to solve the problem I'll go ahead and get the fuel tank drained, fuel pickups, senders, filters and pumps rechecked. If that still fails it looks like I'll be back to where I started - at the ECU! Will keep you posted.
Do let us know what codes yours came up with. And do read on the lambda power website and read some of the other articles you'll find if you Google lambda oxygen sensor - interestingly they are mainly relating to most other makers apart from Mercedes!

Cheers, David

 

[E280V6]

Dealer diagnose is $$$$

Error codes are quite vague in my Merc (280E V6 '93)

Can't actually translate them exactly and over the phone tey didn't give me the code digits, but were "electricity related"; misfiring and ("corredera de la mariposa") which could be something like a regulator for fuel injection.

Diagnose is burnt wiring loom causes shortcircuits and erratic firing, the air flow meter seems affected. Wiring loom costs 850 euros and AMF 345 euros. Labour will be 200 euros, total cost is 1400 + VAT.

Additionally there's an error code related to the "corredera de la mariposa" thingy, which costs 1.500 euros to replace, but the dealer says that the error code is probably prompted by the burnt wiring loom which feeds that item.

All in all it could be something between 1400 and 3000 euros, big bucks for a merc of that age... but I don't want to let it die.

I have asked a very knowledgeable guy in a spanish forum whether there's a chance or not of DIY-ing it. he may well give me a solution and even a tutorial on it, his DIY feats are amazing to see on the forum and he documents them fully with photos, tips, etc... I'm pinning my hopes on it, and will let you know if there's an update.ç

Re the lambda sensor I asked the dealer if that might be an issue and he said there was no hint pointing in that directio, but he would take a dekko... He was polite as ever but I had the feeling he was laughing to himself thinking of my amateurish efforts to find the cause.

Cheers David, and good luck!

 

[kth286]

280EV6

What exactly is a 280E V6 '93 that you mention in the first line of your previous post ???

 

[maxicab]

Yes I've been wondering that too! It doesn't seem to exist in my book. Are you sure it's a W124? Sure it's a V6? What is the engine no. and the chassis no? Is it a saloon, coupe or estate?
It seems a bit too easy to accept a wiring loom fault as being the problem without at least taking the coil covers off and having a good look at the state of the loom wiring. Does this odd-sounding beast of yours have a distributor or is it an all electronic igntion?
If you can get hold of the exact fault codes (after all you've paid for them to be read!) and post them up here maybe some of the wise men here can help you out.

Cheers, David

 

[E280V6]

Hi kth286 and maxicab,

My merc is a year 1993, W124 with a 24 valve V6 2.800, 197 bhp petrol engine. It's electronic ignition.

Check this link: http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?md=241&

"Best in newer models is the 197bhp 24-valve 280E"

"The HT lead wiring loom of 280s and 320s breaks down through heat and exposes the wires. Symptoms are varied. This is £550 for the loom plus fitting"

Re. the codes, they've told me over the phone what the code means, but not what they read.

I've decided I'm not taking their advice and I'm taking the car to an indy I've got good references of and see what comes up.

Cheers,