Aircon - advice, please, on R12 and options

[br1anstorm]

This might be a matter of political/environmental correctness versus simple common sense...

I have a 1990 Merc (560SEC), and also a 1988 Pontiac and a 1993 Jeep - all with R12 aircon systems. I like to keep the cars in good shape, even though none is heavily used. So I try to run each a/c system from time to time, but sometimes the cars are laid up for other reasons. At the very least, I suspect their a/cs may need a tiny bit of regassing to work at full efficiency.

I know R12 is no longer used. But apart from the expense, it seems a lot more environmentally-unfriendly to have to empty out all three systems, get rid of all the remaining R12 (how is it disposed of?), replace and rebuild seals and pipes etc, and refill with R134a, than to top-up the existing systems with very small quantities of R12.

So the question: is it still possible to find R12 simply for such topping up? If not in the UK, is it still in use anywhere else, or for other purposes?

And if not (and although I don't want to provoke an argument) what are my options? Leave alone until the a/c totally fails to function? Bite the bullet and replace the a/c of all three cars? Or is there some other sensible but less drastic way?

br1anstorm

 

[br1anstorm]

what about France, anyone?

No one else seems to have sparked on this... but my ongoing research suggests that it MAY be possible still to get R12 in France. Even though R12 is being phased out in all EU countries and in the US, it seems that different countries are doing so on different timescales.

So if anyone happens to know of an aircon specialist in France who might still have R12, let me know!

br1anstorm

 

[television]

Send a message to Pinball, he lives more in France than the UK.

malcolm

 

[wscheffer]

There is a couple of replacement products on the market for the older R 12 Freon. One of them is called "Freeze 12", it is a non-flamable replacement for 1993 models and down. As I understand it can be mixed with R12 and used to top off. No replacing of seals and vacuuming of systems. "Freeze 12" also mixes with 134a cars for 1993 and up. And the other one is called "ENVIRO-SAFE A" just search for R12 in ebay and these products will come up!

 

[Andy Wr]

R12 should not be available in any EU countries and by the time you have travelled to a third world country the expense would be too much for a squirt of gas. Even if R12 is available "abroad" it can not be brought in to the UK, you will get hit with a £20,000 fine.

2 ways you can tackle this, 1) remove the R12 from all your cars and use it for sole use in 1 of the cars for charging and topping up but bear in mind that cars usually hold between 650 and 1100 grams so the gas would not last for years and years anyway, the others would be to reclaim the gas from the systems using a reclaim machine by a licensed operator with a waste transfer licence and premises code who will by law have to give you a sheet with the type and amount of gas, cylinder transfer serial number and where the gas is going to, this is the law, no short cuts here has you are still responsible if he goes around the corner and blows the gas off, you can then recharge the systems with R49 or RS24, I use R49 for R12 replacement and there you have it, no need to replace oil, o rings, hoses etc, it is also a good idea to add an ultraviolet dye for future leak detection.

Regarding what happens to gas what I have to do is buy a 64 kg cylinder from an wholesaler, when I reclaim gas from a system and hand the customer a report sheet with type and amount of gas and serial number of my small cylinder, once back at the workshop I transfer that reclaimed gas in to my large 64 kg cylinder and fill in the gas cylinder log, once full I fill in another sheet with all my details on it, take it back to the place where I purchased the cylinder from, they fill in there portion of the sheet, the carrier when he collects the cylinder fills his portion in and takes the cylinder to in my case A gas in Bristol who then fill in there portion and destroy the gas with high temperature incineration. The chain of events is traceable all the way back to the customer who originally owned the gas.

This year there is going to be more changes regarding recharging systems with gas leaks such as cars with small leaks, you just will not be able to do, they are really tightening up, by law you can not knowingly allow gas to escape through a leak of any description, if your condenser is leaking slightly it has to be repaired or replaced, no just top it up and see how long it lasts.

Hope the above helps to clarify a few points.

PS Gas prices are currently going through the roof so expect to pay some inflated prices very soon.

 

[br1anstorm]

R12 aircon systems - the options

Thanks Andy Wr - for the detailed account of the current arrangements. What a complicated procedure - only Eurocrats could have devised that! I admire those whose business is maintaining aircon systems if they have to cope with such paperwork.

But all this raises a further thought. R12 is only environmentally unfriendly when released into the atmosphere. It is harmless while contained (ie in an aircon system). So there would appear to be no harm in transferring R12 from one car's existing system to another - as you suggest in option 1. And presumably nothing illegal, provided the transfer was recorded and traceable.

Which prompts the question - is there any reason why I can't simply ask an aircon engineer who is converting someone else's car to R134a, or a dealer who is scrapping a pre-1993 car with aircon, to recover and recycle the R12 as a top up for my system?

Or is this too much like common sense?

br1anstorm

 

[Andy Wr]

Which prompts the question - is there any reason why I can't simply ask an aircon engineer who is converting someone else's car to R134a, or a dealer who is scrapping a pre-1993 car with aircon, to recover and recycle the R12 as a top up for my system?

Or is this too much like common sense?

br1anstorm

Engineers can not sell, trade or even giveaway for free R12 gas particularly from one owner to another owner, now if you had ownership of the said scrapped vehicles then it would be legal to do as you ask as you own the refrigerant gas, absolutely ludicrous I know but that is the law. Another point worth remembering is not a lot of cars now contain R12as we have been substituting it on commercial, domestic and automotive systems since 1990.