Brake lines need doing - various questions.

[Conor]

Hi guys,

Quick one. I had a friend look under my car (2010 E S212) earlier and he was saying the brake lines towards the rear are a bit rusty.

What is the usual job to remedy this?

Is it typical to replace all the lines right back to MC as a fully preventative measure - or just cut / shut the lines wherever are needed?

Another friend of mine is a trained mechanic who is going to help me out with it so don't sweat it lol.

Some questions for clarity:

* For cut/shut 3/16 copper & 3/8 UNF threaded bits. Here and here.
* Is a cut and shut regarded as a bit of a bodge as I want to correctly?
* Is it more proper to replace the entire line and just have it done? It's just more copper (AND time!), right?
* Do I need to purchase anything specific for the replacement of the lines back to the master cylinder? Or is it typical to re-use what is there?

Oh, what are these olives, for re-usable fittings used for? What is a re-usable fitting and what is not?

Cheers
Conor

 

[LostKiwi]

Hi Conor,

1. Don't use copper use cunifer tubing. Copper can work harden and fracture and is illegal in some countries.
2. Nothing wrong with cutting out a damaged section and replacing as long as it's done properly.
3. Replacement of the lines all the way often requires subframe removal and is very time consuming.
4. I would always use new fittings. You'll almost certainly need a tool capable of doing both single and double flares.
5. No idea what those olives are - never seen them on any braking system I've worked on.

One thing - double check the fittings size as they could be 10mm x 1.

 

[V6Matty]

I’d say have a go a cleaning the rust off as it’s likely surface rust, then just give it a good waxoil or just grease,

 

[noonboots]

Original coated steel pipes are a devil of a job to put new flares on for a joint. It can be done but I only did it when parts of the pipe were complex and inaccessible.

 

[Uncle Benz]

As said, cupro-nickel or don’t bother. You can join it halfway, or somewhere convenient, but be aware, flaring the steel pipe needs a proper tool. The cheap eBay ones won’t do it. Even with the proper tool you must scrape off the outer coating the factory steel pipes have on them. You won’t have to go to the master cylinder in any case, all the wheel pipes go back to the ABS control unit. If splicing in halfway I always disconnect the line I’m working on from the ABS unit to avoid working on a dripping line. You can blank the ABS outlet with a bleed nipple of the correct thread while you work. I always bleed each line as I’ve done it, saves risk of air locks.

 

[Droverunner]

It's a while since I've had a vehicle that's needed brake lines but I always preferred going back to the next OE union upstream. Also despite the cost far prefer either makers OE direct fit pre-formed pipes or an aftermarket set with all the correct lengths and unions fitted ready to bend into place. After all this will only be done once in a vehicle's life.

 

[Conor]

Hi Conor,

1. Don't use copper use cunifer tubing. Copper can work harden and fracture and is illegal in some countries.
2. Nothing wrong with cutting out a damaged section and replacing as long as it's done properly.
3. Replacement of the lines all the way often requires subframe removal and is very time consuming.
4. I would always use new fittings. You'll almost certainly need a tool capable of doing both single and double flares.
5. No idea what those olives are - never seen them on any braking system I've worked on.

One thing - double check the fittings size as they could be 10mm x 1.

Thanks LK!

Interesting about the commentary on copper, I thought it was generally accepted to be ok. I'm using Cunifer on the Clio project alright, mainly as the lines will be in the car, and I don't want to risk dropping something on them and damaging. Looks like Cunifer all around, even if it is going to be a cun... to work with heh!

Interesting points on a full replacement versus part with the steel lines being difficult to flare. Some decisions to be made, I guess. Thank you!

I’d say have a go a cleaning the rust off as it’s likely surface rust, then just give it a good waxoil or just grease,

Good point, my mate did get a wire brush in there and there was one point that didn't look great at all.

Original coated steel pipes are a devil of a job to put new flares on for a joint. It can be done but I only did it when parts of the pipe were complex and inaccessible.

That's an interesting point, and not something I had considered, makes sense.

As said, cupro-nickel or don’t bother. You can join it halfway, or somewhere convenient, but be aware, flaring the steel pipe needs a proper tool. The cheap eBay ones won’t do it. Even with the proper tool you must scrape off the outer coating the factory steel pipes have on them. You won’t have to go to the master cylinder in any case, all the wheel pipes go back to the ABS control unit. If splicing in halfway I always disconnect the line I’m working on from the ABS unit to avoid working on a dripping line. You can blank the ABS outlet with a bleed nipple of the correct thread while you work. I always bleed each line as I’ve done it, saves risk of air locks.

Hey G! Thanks for this, looks to be Cupro-nickel as the choice going forward. Some very good tips there, thank you. I've been thinking a lot on the Clio at the moment which doesn't have ABS so wasn't thinking about that.

It's a while since I've had a vehicle that's needed brake lines but I always preferred going back to the next OE union upstream. Also despite the cost far prefer either makers OE direct fit pre-formed pipes or an aftermarket set with all the correct lengths and unions fitted ready to bend into place. After all this will only be done once in a vehicle's life.

Yes that all makes sense too. Thank you.

 

[alexanderfoti]

Mb do not provide ore formed lines (only one length of steel line)

Buy a good high quality flarer, use cunifer for the lines, and go back to nearest oe join if possible.

When flaring the steel line for a joiner, clean all the paint off it, then clean all the oil/grease/brake fluid from it as well.

Mb have a specified limit on the number of joints in each line, for each model.

 

[Conor]

Mb do not provide ore formed lines (only one length of steel line)

Buy a good high quality flarer, use cunifer for the lines, and go back to nearest oe join if possible.

When flaring the steel line for a joiner, clean all the paint off it, then clean all the oil/grease/brake fluid from it as well.

Mb have a specified limit on the number of joints in each line, for each model.

Thanks Alex.

Where will I find the limits. Somewhere in the labyrinth that is WIS heh?

 

[Conor]

Guys can I pick your brains for a second please..

Would this tool be suitable for steel lines? It says steel, just wondering if would be good.

I've also asked on another local FB Group who have recommended "Sykes Pikavant". They seem like top quality but I've only seen full kits that cover multiple connection specs. Are expensive and seem to be more than I need.

Should I just get the below are try and find a slimmed down Sykes kit?

Many thanks.

Welder Generators - Welding

Ireland's leading garage equipment outlet. Huge range of compressors, auto servicing tools, construction tools and power tools.

ige.ie

 

[charlysays]

I have a laser tools flaring tool. Comes in a blue carry case and is very compact and ideal for use under cars. It has a hydraulic ram too (the wind up force multiplier type, not electric) and can flare steel pipes easily. It was about 60 quid IIRC but probably more expensive now.

 

[LostKiwi]

One thing to bear in mind is that if cutting an existing pipe to replace a section the join between old and new can be any fitting that's rated for the pressure and fluid. You don't necessarily need to use flared unions.

 

[Conor]

One thing to bear in mind is that if cutting an existing pipe to replace a section the join between old and new can be any fitting that's rated for the pressure and fluid. You don't necessarily need to use flared unions.

Interesting. I didn't know that. I will investigate.

 

[LostKiwi]

Interesting. I didn't know that. I will investigate.

Bear in mind this from the MOT testers manual:
3.6.B.2.D states:

D. inadequately repaired or with unsuitable joint fitting

Note: Repairs to the pressure lines of hydraulic brake systems are unacceptable unless suitable connectors are used. Compression joints of a type using separate ferrules are not suitable


That means you cannot use any fitting with a separate olive (even though Ford transits use them from the factory!)

 

[Conor]

Bear in mind this from the MOT testers manual:
3.6.B.2.D states:

D. inadequately repaired or with unsuitable joint fitting

Note: Repairs to the pressure lines of hydraulic brake systems are unacceptable unless suitable connectors are used. Compression joints of a type using separate ferrules are not suitable


That means you cannot use any fitting with a separate olive (even though Ford transits use them from the factory!)

Interesting. To be honest, i'll probably use the standard flare nuts and get the appropriate tool.

Keep in mind, i'll be having a trained/experienced mechanic helping me with this and supervising etc.

 

[alexanderfoti]

I use this

Draper Brake pipe Flare Tool Hand 3/16" | Halfords UK

Shop the latest Draper B/pipe Flare Tool Hand 3/16 at Halfords UK

www.halfords.com

Very good, but pipe has to be immaculate

 

[Uncle Benz]

I have this one

Professional Brake Pipe Flaring Tool

If you’re making loads of brake pipes then this ‘Rolls Royce’ of flaring tools is a must have. Superbly engineered from hardened and plated steel, it’ll last a lifetime. Simple, vice mounting. Precision machined tube grips will not mark the copper. Forms perfect ball-end, single and double...

www.carbuilder.com

I’m not keen on any that turn the die into the pipe. Just my tuppence.

 

[alexanderfoti]

I have this one

Professional Brake Pipe Flaring Tool

If you’re making loads of brake pipes then this ‘Rolls Royce’ of flaring tools is a must have. Superbly engineered from hardened and plated steel, it’ll last a lifetime. Simple, vice mounting. Precision machined tube grips will not mark the copper. Forms perfect ball-end, single and double...

www.carbuilder.com

I’m not keen on any that turn the die into the pipe. Just my tuppence.

I use this for bench flares as well, the other tool only on the car for tight spots (Aren't they all)

 

[Uncle Benz]

I have and do use it on the car. I’ve made a tool to mount it onto my pit jack. Ok, it looks a sight, but it works

 

[Conor]

Thanks guys..

@alexanderfoti do you reckon that will flare the OE steel if I can't make it back to a termination point?

@Uncle Benz nice to see you linking to CarBuilder Solutions.. you buy much there ? I love rhat place and about to order a bunch of stuff for the Clio.