Brexit

[Yugguy]

TLDR!!!


(joke)

 

[LostKiwi]

TLDR!!!


(joke)

Dave posted bad **** that happening, Frontstep posted he was being too negative and that's why bad **** was happening and that everything in his world was fine and Dave defended his position and showed why it wasn't all fine.

 

[Headhurts]

These arguments go back and forth, everyone has their own opinions of course.

Most arguments are concerning wealth but I truly believe that a huge amount of people voting leave fully expected there to be a period where trade or £ value drops but this was fully worthwhile to get us out of the EU.

But forget all the arguments on these lines does it not concern anyone particularly if you voted remain that some of our politicians seem to be acting against a democratic vote?

I'm not interested in arguments that the vote was close or people did not know what they voted for.

A vote came in to leave the EU.

This of course does not stop us as individuals discussing things here but it really worries me that having given people the vote there is a seemingly hard line of politicians working against democracy.

What if we had another vote and it went to remain, would this not all start over again with leave voters wanting yet a further referendum or trying to frustrate the remain vote?

It really does worry me that democracy seems to be at risk.


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[geraldrobins]

Politicians who disagree with a vote are entitled to lobby against it to change it surely. They always have. We have had a general election since the referendum and the MPs are entitled ought to represent their constituents. The government is negotiating to leave as per the referendum. Democracy is also about change.

 

[davemercedes]

These arguments go back and forth, everyone has their own opinions of course.

Most arguments are concerning wealth but I truly believe that a huge amount of people voting leave fully expected there to be a period where trade or £ value drops but this was fully worthwhile to get us out of the EU.

But forget all the arguments on these lines does it not concern anyone particularly if you voted remain that some of our politicians seem to be acting against a democratic vote?

I'm not interested in arguments that the vote was close or people did not know what they voted for.

A vote came in to leave the EU.

This of course does not stop us as individuals discussing things here but it really worries me that having given people the vote there is a seemingly hard line of politicians working against democracy.

What if we had another vote and it went to remain, would this not all start over again with leave voters wanting yet a further referendum or trying to frustrate the remain vote?

It really does worry me that democracy seems to be at risk.


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Don't you think democracy went down the tubes when the electorate were fooled by lack of information, incorrect information and damned lies about the benefits/dangers of leaving EU?

Right now all the leavers are very busy wondering what we should do with all the NHS money (if there's any left after we pay pay the divorce bill that the leavers all forgot to mention) while denying the FACTS that they love continue to deny as "project fear".

Meanwhile under the heading of what you call democracy we are digging ourselves further and further into the biggest financial mess we have ever seen. But apparently we'll be "in control".

Oh, I forgot - our esteemed Mrs Mayhem is currently wasting our time and money trying to get Japan on side to deal directly with UK when they're far too busy negotiating with the EU (you know, the other 27 that we have chosen to leave) and Mayhem thinks we can have everything we had within the EU (for nothing). But of course this is just another lying politician who campaigned for remain then "changed her mind" to get the bigger job.

 

[Frontstep]

As expected they just belittled you and dismissed your observations as it wasn't what they wanted to hear.

I am more than happy to have a balanced discussion but someone who trawls the internet looking for bad news and then revels in it is not really worth discussing anything with.

As I said just one out of five articles highlighting advantages might help to give some authority.

Those of us who employ people are in the main optimistic about our future, the UK is not a laughing stock at all.

We are still world leaders in many fields and will continue to be despite the remoaners siren voices trying to beach our country.

 

[Headhurts]

Politicians who disagree with a vote are entitled to lobby against it to change it surely. They always have. We have had a general election since the referendum and the MPs are entitled ought to represent their constituents. The government is negotiating to leave as per the referendum. Democracy is also about change.

No I don't think this is so, many working against the vote represent constituencies that voted leave.

This is not normal run of the mill parliamentary policies a vote was given to the populace and we were told that the vote would be ratified.



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[geraldrobins]

No I don't think this is so, many working against the vote represent constituencies that voted leave.

This is not normal run of the mill parliamentary policies a vote was given to the populace and we were told that the vote would be ratified.



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Well the government are planning to leave. And we are all allowed to disagree.

 

[Headhurts]

Don't you think democracy went down the tubes when the electorate were fooled by lack of information, incorrect information and damned lies about the benefits/dangers of leaving EU?

Right now all the leavers are very busy wondering what we should do with all the NHS money (if there's any left after we pay pay the divorce bill that the leavers all forgot to mention) while denying the FACTS that they love continue to deny as "project fear".

Meanwhile under the heading of what you call democracy we are digging ourselves further and further into the biggest financial mess we have ever seen. But apparently we'll be "in control".

Oh, I forgot - our esteemed Mrs Mayhem is currently wasting our time and money trying to get Japan on side to deal directly with UK when they're far too busy negotiating with the EU (you know, the other 27 that we have chosen to leave) and Mayhem thinks we can have everything we had within the EU (for nothing). But of course this is just another lying politician who campaigned for remain then "changed her mind" to get the bigger job.

Dave you are doing what I asked people not to do, there seems more fuss over this than there was over the Iraq war.

Your politics I assume are to the left therefore you must or should believe in democracy.

Coming up with more quotes about who said what etc is not the point.

You disagree with the result, that is fine and your prerogative but it does not make you right or indeed anyone else who has opinions.

Rightly or wrongly the vote went to leave some people may have changed their minds since but that swings both ways.

I was at a BBQ weekend and was talking to two school teachers who brought this subject up, they voted remain but are worried about the lack of democracy from ardent remain politicians and intimated they would vote to leave if another referendum was given.

We cannot keep voting until the vote goes the way you like.

Yes misleading lies on both sides but most people saw through these and made their own judgements.

The EU negotiation team must be so happy to see the antics at the moment.

And no I don't blame TM she took a gamble and lost some of her majority but despite that she still won the election, I'm not sure anyone at the helm even if Corbin had won would be doing any better.

But I still feel democracy is at risk here.





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[Xtractorfan]

Democracy is the will of the people who voted the way the politicians wanted them to. But it should not stifle debate or the thoughts of those who are in disagreement with the decision... Democracy is never at risk, but important and life changing decisions should always be the subject of further debate and scrutiny.
Politicians will always remind us of the sacrifices that many have fought for to bring us the freedom we now enjoy...Dave is just exercising that freedom and doing it rather well, and long may he and the brexiteers continue expressing their views.
Remember also that most democratic decisions can be reversed after a 4 year term in office of the offending party...But apparently we can only get one shot at this one.
The Brexit vote is a life changing decision for many many people. For those who take it lightly and believe that it is the Utopia we have been waiting on then fair enough. But for many others it is a retrograde step and a big leap into the darkness.
If it ever comes about that Farage and his cohorts, can get their crystal ball to broadcast to the masses, their vision of how the UK on its own, can fight its way back to the top of the pile, then we can all sit back and welcome it. My own feeling is that there much more involved. Divide and conquer comes to mind, Annnd who is most in favour of breaking up the EU.

 

[Frontstep]

"Democracy is the will of the people who voted the way the politicians wanted them to"

Is this some giant conspiracy theory in its infancy ?

I must assume you were previously an ardent Brexiteer seduced by David Cameron into losing your voting virginity did you leave your drink unattended ?

I know its dull but I simply kept my pants on and voted freely like everyone else.

 

[Headhurts]

Democracy is the will of the people who voted the way the politicians wanted them to. But it should not stifle debate or the thoughts of those who are in disagreement with the decision... Democracy is never at risk, but important and life changing decisions should always be the subject of further debate and scrutiny.
Politicians will always remind us of the sacrifices that many have fought for to bring us the freedom we now enjoy...Dave is just exercising that freedom and doing it rather well, and long may he and the brexiteers continue expressing their views.
Remember also that most democratic decisions can be reversed after a 4 year term in office of the offending party...But apparently we can only get one shot at this one.
The Brexit vote is a life changing decision for many many people. For those who take it lightly and believe that it is the Utopia we have been waiting on then fair enough. But for many others it is a retrograde step and a big leap into the darkness.
If it ever comes about that Farage and his cohorts, can get their crystal ball to broadcast to the masses, their vision of how the UK on its own, can fight its way back to the top of the pile, then we can all sit back and welcome it. My own feeling is that there much more involved. Divide and conquer comes to mind, Annnd who is most in favour of breaking up the EU.

I agree Dave does a good job of putting his point but was asking if there was any worry that there is more going on than debate.

It seems to me at least that this is so.

Brexit is a huge thing that is why we need to get it right, the vote to leave was democratic and I don't necessarily agree that it's not at risk.

How democratic really is the EU?

I don't see people looking on leaving as gaining some sort of utopia just gaining back control and steering our own course whilst remaining close links with our European neighbours.

Yes we can change our governments every 4 years or so but it has taken forty plus years to get to this point where the people can have their say.

I hope that our political establishment can at some point start being more constructive whilst still ensuring debate whilst we steer a course out of the EU, I feel at times that some would rather frustrate which of course is wonderful for the EU negotiators and may ensure we get the worse possible deal from them.

I'm quite friendly with a Libdem candidate and not all in the party agree with the current stance of a second referendum but of course the party line must be followed.

No matter what way we voted it must be true that we all want the best from the current situation does it not?


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[davemercedes]

No I don't think this is so, many working against the vote represent constituencies that voted leave.

This is not normal run of the mill parliamentary policies a vote was given to the populace and we were told that the vote would be ratified.



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So democracy is fine so long as everyone agrees with you then?

 

[Headhurts]

So democracy is fine so long as everyone agrees with you then?

Dave, that is silly saying this and does your stance no favours at all, at no point did I say this or intimate this.

The referendum was democratic, there were things said on both sides which were misleading but that said like it or not the vote was to leave.

That's democracy unless you think we should keep running it until the vote goes to remain.

I have enjoyed reading your posts so it saddens me to see you reply in this manner to mine and not because we have different points of view.

I don't think we will agree on this point but there would possibly be many things we do agree on.

I rarely post on this thread because of this type of sarcasm.

I truly do believe when members of parliament start going against their constituents wishes it seems to me to be an abuse of power.

MP's normally represent their constituents by doing what they deem is best and this is fine and how they normally represent us.

But when there has been a referendum it's not fine as a question has been asked and answered.


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[LostKiwi]

The issue for MPs with the referendum is that the referendum followed different voting criteria for the referendum as opposed to the criteria for electing MPs. This sets up the situation where though the referendum may have voted one way the constituency didn't and this in turn sets up a dilemna for the MP.
If an MPs constituency didn't vote in favour of the national referendum should the MP then go against their constituency and support the national vote or should they support their constituency and go against the national vote?

 

[Big Cheese]

Surely they should go with the democratic will of the people.The whole nation voted on a question that was quite simple.Do we wish to stay in the EU or do we wish to leave.
It wasn't split into regions as in a General Election.
The country voted to leave & the vote should be respected & implemented.

 

[LostKiwi]

Surely they should go with the democratic will of the people.The whole nation voted on a question that was quite simple.Do we wish to stay in the EU or do we wish to leave.
It wasn't split into regions as in a General Election.
The country voted to leave & the vote should be respected & implemented.

The will of which people? The ones who voted them in to represent their electorate or the country as a whole? The point is its their electorate who vote them into their job in order to look after their local best interestes. Shouldn't their wishes be respected?

 

[Big Cheese]

But the point is its their electorate who vote them into their job in order to look after their local best interestes. Shouldn't their wishes be respected?

But it wasn't a vote on who runs the country & split into constituencies.It was a national vote as a whole & the majority voted to leave.
That's the big difference in my opinion.

 

[LostKiwi]

But it wasn't a vote on who runs the country & split into constituencies.It was a national vote as a whole & the majority voted to leave.
That's the big difference in my opinion.

And you've just demonstrated my point.
An argument can be made for an MP to support his local constituency or the (advisory and non-binding) national referendum result.

Each is valid so an MP can't really be criticised either way if his local constituency did not favour the Brexit result.

 

[davemercedes]

Dave you are doing what I asked people not to do, there seems more fuss over this than there was over the Iraq war.

Your politics I assume are to the left therefore you must or should believe in democracy.

Coming up with more quotes about who said what etc is not the point.

You disagree with the result, that is fine and your prerogative but it does not make you right or indeed anyone else who has opinions.

Rightly or wrongly the vote went to leave some people may have changed their minds since but that swings both ways.

I was at a BBQ weekend and was talking to two school teachers who brought this subject up, they voted remain but are worried about the lack of democracy from ardent remain politicians and intimated they would vote to leave if another referendum was given.

We cannot keep voting until the vote goes the way you like.

Yes misleading lies on both sides but most people saw through these and made their own judgements.

The EU negotiation team must be so happy to see the antics at the moment.

And no I don't blame TM she took a gamble and lost some of her majority but despite that she still won the election, I'm not sure anyone at the helm even if Corbin had won would be doing any better.

But I still feel democracy is at risk here.

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You say “You are doing what I asked people not to do”. Who are you to tell me? You seem to forget that in this country we are free to criticise those in power – especially those like the ones we have occupying the plum jobs ineffectively today.

Democracy is at risk here? What? - A position-grabbing PM is leading a divided government into the fray and continuing to treat our EU opposite numbers (with whom we need to create a feeling of goodwill) with ongoing arrogance and at home carries on setting out what she wants to impose regardless of the wishes of the electorate (like the things that cost her the promised "landslide" at the last election. And none of the incumbent ministers have the guts to do anything to get rid of her! In fact, they appear to have hung on to her because nobody else wants to be held up as responsible for the ultimate failure of this debacle. And btw I've been to similar social gatherings as you and I've heard many people saying they: -

• Didn't really understand the voting process
• Didn't realise that changes (like tariff charges) could and would happen
• Didn’t understand about the “Single Market” benefits – thought we would just carry on without paying any EU fees.
• Many older people just wanted to get rid of foreigners (I’ve even heard “second world war” type comments)
• They were convinced that "Project Fear" was just that and did not believe they would see the increased prices that are happening.
• School leavers (now old enough to vote) would certainly vote Remain given the chance.

I've also heard leavers saying they would vote the other way today so that's tit for tat if you want to make an argument for a re-run vote...

- But so what – they didn't vote that way- and that negates both arguments.
- Doesn’t make it a good thing, though!

Now... ASSUME makes an ASS out U and ME!
- And your words suggest by omission that people who lean to the right are not democratic!

As it happens, my political leanings have always been to the right although I always expected the right to deliver fair solutions to the electorate and since I first voted (even through the Thatcher years) I voted Tory, frankly only because I thought they were the best of a lousy choice. But when Mayhem did another U-turn and went for a General Election with the obvious intention of simply wiping out any opposition (err, did you mention democracy???), I realised they were no longer the best choice so I voted for another party (not labour) because frankly I've had enough and I don't believe I will ever vote Tory again. I posted as much at that time (and nobody here offered a "best choice" in that discussion).

In parallel with the Brexit campaign, I have felt very uncomfortable about the way this government and their predecessors have "run" (?) the economy and for example created even more "QE money" that the banks who caused the problems in the first place simply grabbed and put into their balance sheets (as opposed to bolstering business) so that to my utter embarrassment I saw that the NHS has been driven into the ground and it's true in the 21st century that nurses amongst others have had perforce to use food banks and the party who always stood for law and order have raped police numbers and created a majority who are disillusioned and the numbers leaving/planning to leave have never been so high.

Just look at the economic news: the first surplus for 15 years which was announced with a fanfare of trumpets like a great achievement... This would be good news if it had been achieved by prudent management but it hasn't, has it? It's only been achieved via austerity but it hasn't helped our debt repayments (the cost of borrowing continues at a higher rate because one of the first reactions in the "real" world judging our Brexit decision was to cut back our credit rating!

You seem to miss my point about Mayhem - again as I have posted before, she campaigned to remain then when Cameron left, she did one of her many U-turns in order to get the "big job" - months ago I posted quotes of about a dozen public statements she made pro-remain then later on said the exact opposite pro-leave. The woman is a purely self-interested liar pretending to care about the electorate with all her "blessed" ambitions to put injustices right (look up - there's one overhead: "oink flippin' oink"). She is unfortunately also without substance as we shall see from the result of this week's trip to Japan - I'll bet my wallet she comes back with nothing although it will be proclaimed as a "good, constructive meeting blah blah"...

And the news from the latest EU "negotiations" is just what I expected, unfortunately: -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41106507
- No decisive progress on Brexit - Barnier

Bearing in mind the news last week was headlined "Britain in 'good position' in Brexit talks - May's spokeswoman" it's not surprising that Barnier - the one who matters most (simply because he represents the other 27 EU countries) says "no decisive progress this week”. But our representative, Davis says "Brexit talks make 'concrete progress'..." (who's telling porkies, then?).

And once again, the one country who is leaving and has the weakest hand of all is calling on the other 27 "to be "more imaginative and flexible in its approach" (look up again....). Boris can tell him what will happen – the 27 will tell us to "go and whistle!". Yes, as you say the EU team must be laughing their socks off - right from the beginning we have had no plan and the civil servants have only recently produced the documents which are regarded as a (bad) joke.

I have not asked for an opportunity to keep voting until the vote goes the way I like (Yes, once again you are putting words in my mouth). I have stated on a number of occasions that I albeit reluctantly, accept the vote but that will not stop me pointing out - ever, the harm the leave process is doing to our country. Interestingly, before the Brexit result was published, that "great democrat" Nigel Fridge Magnet went on record to say that if the referendum result showed a low balance in favour of remain (i.e.: along the percentage lines by which the Brexquitters actually won) he intended to call for a re-run!

Theresa Mayhem has announced today that she wants to stay in the job through to the next election so all we have to look forward to is more of the same. If that happens we're pretty sure to see the Euro at 1:1 with the Pound by the end of the year - not even "shrinkflation" will hide the prices then!

I said from the very beginning that the EU will give us precisely what they choose to give. “Negotiation” is only a word and there’s not much of it! We certainly won’t achieve much while we continue the arrogant methodology that’s been in place so far.