Buying back my E Class

[Dr Claire]

My 2 year old 270CDI E Class has been the most unreliable car I have ever owned. MB and the dealer are now talking about buying back the car and putting me in a new vehicle. Has anyone gone through this process and can offer me some advice.
Thanks
Claire

 

[television]

hello Claire. I think that you must find out what is on offer,are they talking a new or used car. if any money involved, how much, find out what the offer is and come back to us.

Malcolm

 

[SL Boy]

I agree with Malcolm and have one additional piece of advice. Whatever the deal you should be financially no worse off and in my view should come out of it a little better off as compensation for the hassle you have undoubtedly suffered over the last 2 years.

This has happened to us once and the dealer (Pentagon Bristol) was very realistic. The whole affair was funded by MB UK and the dealer was purely administering the process.

The only part of the process that didnt go well - but didnt affect us - was that they admitted the car was a "dog" and would be scrapped. Six months later we had a call from the new owner who had bought the car as a Mercedes "Signature approved" vehicle. Oh dear.

 

[television]

I have bought these so called dogs in the past, I fixed the faults as I drove, when all OK I have sold the car, and done well, so has the person who has bought it from me, often local and stay in touch

Malcolm

 

[Sanny]

Buyback

I am currently going through this process and it makes the dealer service look great!

I have a 2003 (53) E270cdi which has been a nightmare to own since day 1. The poor service from the local dealer has made matters even worse, so I started speaking to the supplying dealer who is a considerable distance away about taking the car back. This process started in July 2005. The following notes might help you.

1. Make sure you get a copy of the Key Damage report from your dealer. This is where all warranty work is recorded. Also keep a note of all the dates your car was not available due to warranty problems and the time taken to resolve warranty issues. Send all this in writing to you dealer as it will help them to argue your case in the face of considerable opposition and competition.

2. The dealer has to go to their Area Manager for approval. The Area Manager has to go to Daimler Chrysler UK for approval. This process take time. Keep in contact with your local dealer and find one person who will deal with your claim. This makes getting feedback much easier.

3. My dealer agreed to go for the buyback option straight away. This should be a no brainer as 44 warranty claims including 2 gearboxes, pre-cat and 2 air mass sensors cost MB a lot of money. However, it still took 5 months to get approval from Head Office.

4. MBUK have had a serious problem with buyback due to the sheer volume of customer complaints. In my case, the local dealer submitted 10 vehicles for buyback and only 1 (mine) was approved. Even then, the time taken is incredibly frustrating. MBUK do not want to call it buyback due to the bad publicity so are calling it customer support for a valued customer! The process and deal is still the same.

5. Once buyback is agreed, MB will look at the price you paid for your car, look at its current trade value and then offer to support the dealer with some additional funds based around the mileage covered. The mileage charge is around 45 pence per mile. i.e. on a £40,000 E class, you would get back around £29,000 assuming you had driven 25,000 miles.

6. You do not get the money back, so that you can buy something that works like a Lexus, BMW, Audi etc. The money is put towards another new Mercedes model as a straight swap. i.e. You are normally only allowed to swap an E class for an E class.

7. If you don't want another E class, refuse point blank to accept another E class, but offer to take a new ML etc instead. You can then avoid another mistake like the one you made in buying an E class in the first place.

8. The replacement car is supplied by the dealer at cost! Yes thats right at cost as the dealer is not allowed to make money from the buyback scheme (technically). So in theory, you can get £29K back for your E class and order a new ML at cost with a cost to change of around £12K.

9. Yes you can have a new ML for your car plus £12K.

10. The bad news - all this takes time. In my case I agreed buyback with the dealer in the summer, formal approval took 5 months. I ordered the new car on official confirmation of buyback, new car won't come until May 2006. Use of my current car means additional mileage which increases my contribution to new car, plus I still have a car which doesn't work properly etc etc.

So you have the choice, you can go through the process and get a new Mercedes at a signifcant discount with a much better valuation on your existing car but you still have to buy Mercedes, or you can sell you car at a loss and buy another marque.

 

[jberks]

7. If you don't want another E class, refuse point blank to accept another E class, but offer to take a new ML etc instead. You can then avoid another mistake like the one you made in buying an E class in the first place.

Its interesting to hear how the system works. It certainly sounds like a reasonable deal and a lot better than you'd get if you hawked it round the dealers. The 5 months is frustrating though.
I understand you are P'd off with your E270. After that horendous list of problems I would be too, but don't tar all E's with the same brush. Most are perfectly ok and you'd be very unlucky to get 2 dogs in a row. There are thousands of E270s running around without a problem. However 2002/2003 were not the best years for the E class, hence the reason I bought a very late 04 one. As an E driver, ploughing the motorways, I wouldn't want an ML but the new E280CDI is a completely different car in terms of the issues you've had, so shouldn't be rejected out of hand.

 

[maddog]

a mate of mine had a w210 E 320 cdi and loved it , come trade in time he bought a new ML and has had a load of trouble with it including an engine failure at 62,000 miles (under 3 years) which his local dealer offered NO goodwill contribution without a lot of argument!!

He really regrets getting the ML and i've read many forums where they are slated even more that the w210/w211

 

[Dr Claire]

Hi Sanny,
Thanks for the info although events have moved on. Some months ago I went to DC HQ in Milton Keynes, I avoided the dealer. DC sorted out the problems as they exsisted then and we agreed that should the car have serious problems in the future then we would demand a new car.
The gearbox and torque converter was replaced last week (£5,000) and I again went to DC. They met me at the dealer and insisted that the dealer "get me out of that car". The deal was that the dealer take the E Class and provide me with a new E Class the leasing payments remaining the same save for an increase in the term. The new car is a E320 with toys (COMMAND) so I feel reasonably happy with the deal.
I was offered a M Class but not until next April - the old model was unaccepable as it finicshed 147 out of 150 in the 2004 J D Power. S Class was another option but the cost to me was higher and I didn't feel able to spend more money.
I just hope the new car - arriving Friday- will be better than the old one. How did MB get in such a mess?
Regards
Claire

 

[SL Boy]

Looking through this whole exercise it seems a bit of a scam. The bottom line seems to be MB keeps a customer happy and loyal to MB, MB sells and finances a new car, MB dealer makes a profit in selling the "dog" car to an unsuspecting owner.

So who wins:

(i) new MB car owner IF the new car is not a "dog" like the previous one
(ii) owner of new "dog" IF he is able to sort his car's problems out cost-effectively
(iii) MB and supplying dealer win hands down as MB sells a new car with a new finance deal and dealer makes profit on the "dog"

Sorry to be so cynical but with the reliability and dealer problems with my 4 Mercedes I'm moving to other more reliable suppliers.

 

[John Brazel]

e270 cdi

Until I found this site I thought, and had been told that my problems were, whilst not unique pretty rare.
My car (52) was bought 6 months old from approved MB dealer and has been the worst car I have ever owned.
Not once in the last two years has it gone 4 months without a recall.
Apart from at least 6 "flat batery's" - none of which was ever explained, wheel bearings, steering knuckle, fuel injectors, turbocharger, gearbox and assorted electricals.
It is now a fortnight out of warranty and I am in correspondence about a £1200 bill for repairs following collapse of offside steering knuckle (and associated disk) failure.
I must have bought a "dog" - any advice on how to progress as it is not as clear not having been the sole owner.
I am struggling to get any correspondence from MB despite follow up letters and emails.

 

[Dr Claire]

Hi John,
I sympathise so much with your dillema and can only relate my experience and hope it works for others. MB and the dealer did replace my E270CDI estate and I took delivery of the new E320 last Friday. The dealer was not the decision maker but the guys in the Chief Exec's office at Daimler Chrysler were. I am lucky to live only a mile from the offices so I took a trip to get satisfaction. After this impromptu meeting they (DC) took over and told the dealer what they wanted. In the end it was DC who told the dealer they wanted me to have a new car after the £5,000 bill for the torque converter and gearbox replacement. Persist is my advice and if you are able to go to Milton Keynes then face to face is much better than letters, emails and phone calls that are usually ignored. Good luck. Claire

 

[VW-lover]

My experience relates to a C -Class, but the overall problems apply to all MB cars.

I took delivery of my 2001 - C220 CDI Elegance in Feb 2005 from MB Direct.

The car was supposed to have had a full PDI carried out.

Within a week of driving the car, I was horrified to find faults that other members have described in the forum.

The list of defects were as follows and I quote from my letter to MB Direct:-

"a) Shock absorbers are worn out and offer no damping action. There is a constant banging noise that emanates when the vehicle is driven over a slightly uneven surface. This is a major fault that should have been picked up during the ‘multi-point’ check that Mercedes-Benz claims to have carried at pre-delivery inspection.

b) Driver’s seat electronic adjustments do not work. I traced the fault to the blown fuse, which I replaced with the correct one from the set of fuses that came with the car.

The new fuse lasted about two seconds and blew. Since then, I have replaced three fuses and every time they blow.

Obviously, there is an electrical fault in the system.

c) Electronic Stabilising Programme (ESP) has failed and does not
function. There is a constant message in the dashboard display stating the failure of the system and that the vehicle needs to be taken to a workshop.

At times, two messages regarding the ESP are displayed.

d) Intermittent electrical fault messages are displayed, stating the rear number plate lights are not working, even though they are operational.

e) Remote boot release does not operate all the times. It works intermittently.

f) Radio electrical display flickers and at times cuts off the transmission all to together.

g) O/S rear door handle has worked itself loose.

h) Hand brake is ineffective and does not afford secured parking position.

The brake pedal needs to be pushed almost to the floor to get limited restraining effect from the brake."

I forcefully returned the car within the 30 day "No Quibble" Warranty and had to fork out extra £2000 for an alternative car, which I had to go and find from MB Direct web-site. So much for customer-care!

Overall, MB Direct offered next to nil support in trying to resolve the problem.

In my opinion, my next car is going to be a VW Passat or an Audi A4. I have had previous models, over many years and each one of them had covered in excess of 177K and 228K miles respectively, without as much as a second turn of the ignition key. Service from their dealers was exemplary.

Unless MB change their policy and procedures, many potential new-comers to MB would revert back to other brands that offer "true" customer care.

Having said all that, it may be that I ended up with a bad "dog"......but then there is a similar pattern in all the other notes posted on this site. Coincidence???? !!! I wonder!

 

[jberks]

In response to VW-Lover -
yes customer service is dodgy at best. Yes PDIs aren't worth the paper they are printed on and no I have never had a car that I didn't return within 3 weeks with a list of minor faults. However, how can you buy a car you haven't driven? In Dr Claire's case, the car was new and faults appeared over time. In your case, you bought a wreck that drove as a wreck from day 1. One drive would have told you not to buy it! Sure they shouldn't have sold it but you shouldn't have bought it.
This forum is full of complaints, but thats surely what a forum is for? People don't come on forums with a 2 year old car, shouting how wonderful it is. I suspect that a 220cdi with worn brakes and suspension was a repmobile in a previous life (big miles? - very cheap as a result, was that why you had to pay an extra 2k to get an equivalent decent one?). I've seen from fleets in the past, that reps often happily drive around with cars that I'd consider dangerous. Nothing that can't be easily fixed if someone bothered to report the fault, but reps rarely do in my experience. Sure the dealers are sharks, but thats the business, they aren't going to volunteer to spend money on your car. They don't have the margins. When they were small independents they had some leway, but they are all PLCs now and have to show a profit on every transaction or the accountants will be on their backs and the salesman won't get his bonus. I'm not excusing their behaviour, but I do understand it.
I've had a new audi blow up and had to shout at the salesman to get a replacement. I've had Audi try to refuse to pay for a warranty claim because a service was over 12 months ago, despite it having a service indicator and it telling me I had a few thousand miles left and the fault was unrelated anyway. I test drove a V6 passat for a friend who had been told by the dealer that 'it was fine'. It wouldn't go in a straight line and needed a new steering rack! Another friend is on his 3rd turbo in his golf TDI. The service they get from the VW garage is appalling, even from my poor MB point of view.
My point is that they are all crap and unfortunately you are likely to have problems with any make these days. The MB of today isn't the MB of 1985 that we all expect, but then if it was I probably couldn't afford one.

 

[DAD190E1990]

I can't help thinking that all these build quality problems are down to the economic state of Germany. I know quite a bit about manufacturing cars and the outsourcing they go through. If MB are suffering Economic problems and their workforce are hit by the same, the workforce are not going to be productive and niether will thier process'. I do not speak from direct experience with MB but i have learned a lot about other German manufacturers and have some german friends working in that sector at the moment and they know how bad it is getting. I would imagine MB to be one of the better companies to work for but i don't know it for sure. The people who bolt the cars together, along with the people who decide which pre-assembly is fitted and who supplies what part for it - they are the ones responsible for how our cars turn out. The people responsible for them and ultimately the German government are responsible for them having those problems.
Obviously this is conjecture but it is subjective and although it does not offer any help to anyone suffering MB's current cars, it does begin to define when they went bad and which are the last of the properly built models. I feel truly sorry for anyone going through a bad time with what is supposed to be one of the best marques on the road. No longer does a brand new car mean something reliable and virtually faultless, which is a shame because it used to.

 

[jberks]

No longer does a brand new car mean something reliable and virtually faultless, which is a shame because it used to.

I've actually felt for a long time that a second hand car is often a better option. Any build faults are likely to have been resolved by the previous owner. He gets a problematic motor and spends hours in the service dept, and I get a fault free one. Sure they don't have the warranty, but thats nothing that a few quid can't easily resolve and the saving on new easily covers the difference.

I'm not sure if I'd change my mind if I could actually afford a new one, but to be honest I'm not convinced mine is really worth the £39k someone paid for it anyway. Especially considering that 11 months later I picked it up for 28, mint, serviced and warrantied for 3 years. 2 months and 4k later, no faults to report.

 

[johnmc]

Interesting thread. I had a long chat with a senior salesman at one of my local Merc dealers. He's getting really fed up with the quality of the cars, hoping that Merc will design something better. The only good source of data on reliability is long term surveys of thousands of cars. The best cars have typically fewer than 10% warranty claims in a year (one in ten owners makes a warranty claim), the worst 60% (EG Landrovers). Merc seems to be about 20-28%. The best (Lexus, Honda, Toyota and Nissan) are under 10%. Merc is exactly the same as Audi and VW, well behind Lexus. BMW does seem a little better, 10-20%. Every month What Car publishes data on a particular sector of the used car market, worth a look.

Very interesting comments on outsourcing of production. As a long standing supply chain manager I see this causing big problems in the electronics industry too. The control of outsourced quality (sub-assemblies and higher level assemblies) is frankly beyond many firms, and they really struggle to launch new designs into an outsourced supply chain. The dynamics this causes are curious:

- In house production operators feel threatened. Merc and VW have threatened to move final assembly to the Far East, or Eastern Block, to try and reduce costs. Not exactly conducive to good quality workmanship from a happy Merc/VW workforce. VW reckons they have 15,000 people TOO MANY!
No surprise as they work 31hours/week..!
- Design teams lose control of many simple parts, using instead parts that the supply chain can source for them nice a cheap from Asia etc. This slowly but surely drives the core quality out of many brands.
- The contract manufacturers live or die on their overhead and inventory control, cutting corners to squeeze out costs and investing more people in stock control than in quality control! They make fundamental errors that cause new products to fail.

If Merc, or other large car manufacturer in Europe cracks this nut I'd be delighted to come visit them, after the quality is proven though...! Remember that long term reliability is about design, not manufacturing mistakes. If the E-class design is "bad" it will not be a reliable car, ever, in my experience. Now that the W211 design is three years old we should get a sense of that shortly in reliability surveys.

Meantime, my W210 has been remarkebly defect free. The rust continues to develop nicely, next claim should be ready in the summer. My second Seat Alhambra continues to be defect free, last one had no trouble. The 7seater covers 20,000miles/year.

John

 

[jberks]

The point about outsourcing is true wherever you look. I am in the software industry and constantly fighting the management view that this is the way to go. Sure its cheap, but it's also crap. The only code that passes my desk first time without being rejected, is written here. I have lost count of the number of programs that come in with such things as error handlers written to handle a bug the developer was too inexperienced to fix or lots with "if error .. ignore". The program then screws up and carries on regardless. Not a nice thought when this happens whilst processing your bank account.

I don't blame the suppliers, they are too inexperienced to know better. What management fail to comprehend, is that experience counts and can not be got from a training course. The good people in my game are apprentice trained. Sure we all have lots of certificates and photos with silly hats, but we also have 10 years minimum at the coal face, learning from guys with 20 years under their belts. These guys come along, they have the hat and certificate, but who trained them? Their local industry is 5 mins old so if they are lucky, they'll learn from someone who graduated a week earlier. We were sent a "top senior developer" a few years ago, it took us 2 years to train him up to what I would call acceptable.

I assume that component manufacturing has a similar problem. There are things that the tool setters and shop floor staff etc will just 'know', that the outsourcers don't. We are paying the price. However, I'm actually optimistic. With all naive accountancy driven engineering projects, these things are cyclical. Save money by outsourcing, warranty/fix costs go up and quickly exceed money saved. Reduce costs by improving quality, bring some things back in-house and around we go. Its already happening in software. As I've said before, I didn't consider any pre 04 E classes as I know how bad they can be, Instead I waited until things improved and my nearly 05 one is pretty good so far.

 

[Sanny]

Its been a month since my original post so I thought I would update everyone.

I accept that not all E classes are the same, but I know 3 other people who bought new E 270/320 CDIs within months of me. All have had problems, although to be fair not to the same extent. You could accept the odd bad car, but it take great ineptitude to keep on making them. Thats without the unbelievably poor service.

Like Dr Claire, I spoke to DCUK and was told they accepted that MB has a major problem with the quality at the moment and were trying to improve etc.

I still have to wait another 3 months until my new/replacement car is delivered, and I keep being otld by the dealer that the build quality etc is much much better than my E class. Then again, they didn't say that the quality of the E class was shoddy when it was launched. In fact I clearly remember comments about a return to the old days of bomb proof cars.

My now old E class was traded straight out withou so much as a check over by MBUK. I know this because the dealer told me by mistake!

I just hope I get a call from any new owner when they get the V5c.

 

[johnmc]

Hi Julian,
Despite the problems with the Merc and the dealers I've resisted serious temptation to trade it in for a non-Merc. Even if a Lexus is more reliable it just ain't the same experience. I can see me running the same one for years to come, then trading for a shiney reliable newer E-Class. I agree with yourself that brand new is not the way to buy.

Good comments on outsourcing. Our final assembly and test is now mostly in Asia (complex high end communications electronics with lots of software) and the guys out there are keen, but with their "5 mins" of experience just don't get it...! Software is still written in the West but I can see moves ahead to get some written in China. Just love those software defects...we need more!

The outsourcing is a trendy cycle right now, but it will take a while still for the penny to finally drop. Mad thing is that the people we outsource too (Malaysia) are looking over their shoulders, expecting to be outsourced to even cheaper countries (China). Beginning to lose track of who actually makes our products!

Cheers!
John

 

[dogsbody]

What a sad story. I have both the W124 E250, and a second hand E320 (w210).
Having had a blown fuse and duff battery on the w124 (over 85K and 6 Years) I was pretty impressed with my first Merc.
Having taken advice, I did not buy a new one, but a second hand E320, with full service history, simply because a few years ago the E Class then was the most reliable Merc that Mercedes produced.
What I really do not understand is why they went from producing good, reliable bullet proof cars, to cars which are less reliable than any of the major makers, except the French!
Maybe the decision to buy Chrysler, took all the budget away, so the products were developed on a shoestring and not properly beta tested.
Hang on, did not the same thing happen with British Leyland in the 1970's?

Hope the new car is totally reliable!