E 240 Rust ....just gets worse

[Jay Tee]

I bought a E240 Avantegarde from Hughes of Aylesbury in Sept last year and it came with the 35 year anticorrosion warranty etc etc ...but it was unmarked at the time.

Within 6 weeks rust spots started forming on the bonnet ..on the roof and I noticed the boot key area was rusting so I took it back and they told me that the rust spots were paint chips and that the boot area could be covered by warranty but they would need to have it looked at by the bodyshop.

I argued that the rust spots could not be down to stone chips as I had only had the car a few weeks and they were not there before and in any case how could they rust so quickly. I was also told that veining in the paintwork was down to stone chipping....

About a week later a panel beater came out to see me and he had an elctronic device which measured the thickness of the paint and to my horror it was all over the place...very thin in places and thicker in others...needless to say it was thinner where the rust was......so he told me that the car should be done under warranty .

Then he pulled out a wing mirror from his case and showed me underneath the wheel arches ..they too were rotting.....then he peeled away the rubber door seals and showed me rust around the doors ..all of them.

I immediately contacted the dealership who denied that there was any rust problems with the car but agreed to look at it and they collected my car and took it to Beaconsfield. Whilst it was there I asked for a quote for a service which was due in the next few weeks and they said they would call me back with a price and thier assesment of the paintwork.

Later that afternoon they called me and asked for my debit card ...when I asked what for ?...they told me it was for the £900 service they had just carried out on it ......I was furious . They hadn't even looked at the paintwork but had carried out a full service without my knowledge and expected me to pay for it ...naturally I refused .

So they sent the car back.........without looking at the paintwork and when it came back .....the car had a crack in the front bumper which was not there when it left . I confronted them about it and they denied it happened in thier care .....this was just getting worse and worse ....I mean how much worse could it get ?

Then the driver who bought the vehicle back to me told me the following information......

1) That the E Class was plagued with rust ....on doors, seals, wheel arches, suspension struts, boots , etc
2) Thats it's well known by Mercedes Benz and that they even have posters on the walls in the workshops highlighting the rust areas.
3) That Mercedes will never acknowledge the fault because it would cost them too much
4) That the damage to my car was probably due to the other drivers at the dealership or even another customer who would have driven off.

I recorded all of this on my phone and I sent a letter to the dealership but they rejected my request for the rust to be repaired . SO did Daimler Chrysler.

My point is that I paid £15k for the vehicle and have it on 5 years finance ...but there is rust literally appearing each day and the car is rotting in front of my eyes......rust is now on the bonnet around the badge area ..also on the areas around the lights ....

All in all a disaster ..incompetant dealership....crap service and its just a nightmare.

I have spoken to my solicitor who has told me to reject the vehicle and demand a refund of my deposit and all monies paid thus far to the finance company .

Does anyone have any information at all that would back up my claim that the car was sold with a manufacturers rust problem..ie something from Daimler Chrysler ???

John

 

[jakmeticklerpaper]

tin worm

As said many times before (and in another recent thread) rust problems, since the change to water based paint, are a well known problem to MB and to all dealers.
You have a 30 year corrosion warranty and this is not invalidated if your car has been serviced by others, only if it has not been serviced at correct intervals.
All being in order, MB are legally obligated to repair your car FOC and provide you with a replacement car while the job is done. My 1999 C220cdi rear doors were done recently and I have no complaints with the way that MB handled the job.
You must learn to be tough and complain LOUDLY. If your dealer will not cooperate, use CAB, send a lawyer's letter, get an independent motor engineer to write a report, use AA/RAC, write to your MP, anything. But don't give in.
Good luck.
j

 

[Jay Tee]

Thanks for the advice but unless I can prove that the dealer sold me the car KNOWING that there was a rust problem then legally I don't have a leg to stand on . I dont want them to repair it .....it will only come back and I dont want to spend every weekend looking for new rust ....I want to reject the car so I can buy a better one.

Hence if anyone has any onfo from Daimler Chrysler that shows they acknowlged the problem then that would help.


Thanks

 

[jberks]

Hi,
If you bought the car from a Merc dealer I would have thought that as a signature car, it meets ALL of MBs requirements and is therefore covered by the corrosion warranty. It is true that there is a rust problem with the E, but some are worse than others. Mine is due back at the body shop in a couple of weeks for a number of areas to be attended to. The problem does vary between cars - mine is fine really, but as MB will fix it, at the slightest trace I bang in a claim.

As far as them knowing about it, put it this way. Ask any MB dealer or E class owner where E classes rust and we will all tell you
1) Boot Lock
2) front cross member (mine is fine though)
3) doors under rubber seal (1 door done last year, other 3 being done next week)
4) sill (mine anyway - again being done next week)
5) wheel arches (I think there may be slight traces on my front o/s - I will be speaking to the dealer when it goes in)

My car is booked in for 2 weeks and I have a C class loan car booked FOC.
My dealer can be a pain, but once motivated they are fine and they wouldn't dare tell me there isn't a corrosion problem with the E.

You could prove this point by taking your car to another MB dealer and asking them to do a quick corrosion check. They will go straight to the problem areas. If your dealer claims that they don't know where to look, I would question the competence _ very loudly in their sales area!

If you like the E (ignroing the corrosion) I might suggest that they might like to simply replace the car, rather than have all the aggrivation of discussing the situation with a judge and the local press. If not, I think you have a perfect case for your money back.

Re the bumper - that's their problem not yours.

Also £900 for a service?
Am I missing something ? - the most I have ever paid for a service on my E240 is £600 and that was for a fair few extras such as brake fluid and coolant change etc. If I buy a car from an MB dealer, I do not expect to put my hand in my pocket at all for 12 months.

 

[Morzine]

Hi.

JBerks wrote
"2) front cross member (mine is fine though)".


I would recommend anyone checking their cross member to actually remove the underneath covering and not just to check from the engine by. I couldn't see any signs from above but when the dealer removed the cover from underneath it was rust from end to end.

Regards,

M,

 

[jberks]

Hi.

JBerks wrote
"2) front cross member (mine is fine though)".


I would recommend anyone checking their cross member to actually remove the underneath covering and not just to check from the engine by. I couldn't see any signs from above but when the dealer removed the cover from underneath it was rust from end to end.

Regards,

M,

Fully agree - to be fair, I am going on the dealer's word on this as I haven't been underneath myself, but as they would be getting the work and were putting in a claim anyway their motivation should be to find fault if there was one.

On the same point, every service, I have the dealer do a corrosion check and list that this has been done on the worksheet and whether anything was found. (shows on the invoice so I have proof) That way I have some come back if I get any nasty surprises. I also insist that the dealer does the servicing, despite paying over the odds, for the same reason. Whilst in an ideal world it shouldn't make a difference, I think it helps to maintain a regular relationship with them so they see you as a regular customer and don't take the mickey.

 

[robinh20mrv]

clk 430

hi guys,

my clk 430 has just been looked at by my local merc dealer in edinbugh and i have (so far ) found them to be very good, they are waiting on merc getting back to them to authorise repairs now, and it looks like it will be getting 2 new wings and a boot lid, they are also trying to see what merc will say about ther bottom of the drivers door (as the small amount of rust MAY have been caused by the door hitting somthing) well time will tell as they say,
but so far they seem very good!
i will keep the group posted!

cheers robin.

 

[jberks]

Hi Robin,
Be aware that it can take ages for MB to approve the work. Oddly, even though they hadn't got formal approval, my dealer eventually agreed to do it anyway - but then that was 7 months after the claim went in. I am hoping the 2 bubbles that are down to stone chips will have to be done as they will be respraying the panels anyway as part of the warranty work. You may find that if they are doing the boot and wings, they'll spray the doors anyway to match the paint (I had the boot lock fixed - they painted the boot lid the 2 rear wings and the roof side panels to blend it in!)

 

[robinh20mrv]

clk 430

hi m8,

acording to m/b edinburgh i will have the go ahead in 2 to 3 weeks! so i am keeping my fingers crossed that that will be the case! they seem very helpfull, i will keep you all posted!!

cheers robin.

 

[jakmeticklerpaper]

"unless I can prove that the dealer sold me the car KNOWING that there was a rust problem then legally I don't have a leg to stand on"

Jaytee,
Where did you get this idea from? It's BS. The dealer has an obligation under his sales contract with you and MB have an obligation under their bodywork warranty. Read my post again, didn't I say that MB and its dealers are well aware of the paint problems? Haven't many people on this site said that their cars have been repaired by MB at no cost?
You hold all the cards and don't let anyone tell you any different. Go to trading standards and check with them.
j

 

[jberks]

hi m8,

acording to m/b edinburgh i will have the go ahead in 2 to 3 weeks! so i am keeping my fingers crossed that that will be the case! they seem very helpfull, i will keep you all posted!!

cheers robin.

It may be that they've finally got their finger out, and my case was a bit extreme, but when I spoke to my dealer in April, they were just getting ok's for claims submitted in October!

 

[philharve]

Not just Es

Hi All

Reading this new thread this evening gave me the jitters but the advice dispensed by senior members above is sound and was confirmed to me today by someone who once worked for MB. I learned a few things about some MB dealers that I really didn't want to hear but which I instinctively knew to be true. I now realise that my long term relationship with my C class, the first MB I have ever owned, may be short lived. Only time will tell.

I say 'jitters' because the above tales of woe made me relive my day which started with a new icon suddenly appearing on my car's display after starting it and pulling away. I had not seen this warning indicator before but I knew it wasn't serious. However, just to be sure, I stopped the car after about 3 miles and checked my handbook. Sure enough, it was an exterior lighting warning ... a blown bulb. But where? I did not know before today that the MB's electronics can actually indicate in which lighting circuit the blown bulb is located. I'm now much wiser. I'm more used to having an external observer look at my car's lights to see which operate and which don't whilst I sit inside twiddling knobs, toggling switches and pressing pedals.

I consider myself to be law abiding person so I decided to visit my nearest MB specialist ASAP and before the police stopped me for defective lighting. I was pretty certain it was a brake light ... but which one? Would the specialist sell me a replacement bulb and would he fit it for me?

This was the first failure my car had suffered in the five-and-a-half months of ownership. I haven't even lifted the bonnet since test driving the car. Bulb replacement ought to be cheap, but then I thought, 'It's a Mercedes-Benz!' Still, I don't want to attract the attention of the Law, so headed towards a nearby town rather than head for home.

I pulled into the specialist's workshop about 40 minutes later. The main dealer was another 5 miles further on but I decided I would avoid them, if possible.

I explained my predicament to the specialist and he showed me how to use the car's electrical system to determine which lighting circuit contained the defective bulb. I was now the external observer and my suspicion was confirmed ... the rear nearside brake light was not working. The specialist went away to fetch a replacement. The trick with the lighting circuit 'fault analysis' is simple when you know how.

The specialist's wife wandered over. She remembered me from a previous visit made some months earlier. She inquired about my car's rust problem. There are now 3 spots: one spot along the top window channel of the rear nearside door (the original and worst spot); a small spot on the trailing edge of the bonnet, very near the windscreen, and a fine web of lines under the paintwork on the nearside front door. The lines converge at a point under the paintwork. This point is not the location of a stone chip, the paintwork is unbroken. The rust spot is beneath the paint. This door panel will become a problem in a few years time.

The MB dealer took photos of the original rust spot about 5 months ago when I submitted my corrosion claim. They don't yet know about the bonnet or the door panel rust as they have only become noticeable within the last few months. Yes ... you do have to wait a bl**dy long time to get service from MB. But I've been assured by the dealer the delay is not the their fault because all claims have to be referred to Germany. Stuttgart ultimately decides whether MB will entertain a claim, or not. However, I don't believe they act without the dealers advice.

The specialist informed me that damage to window channels will almost certainly be given the 'green light', especially if rust had broken out after a previous repair. However, rust anywhere around the front of the car will almost inevitably be deemed as, 'Untreated stone chip damage? Owner foots the bill!' (TRY PROVING OTHERWISE!) So ... if you have any rust damage to the front of your MB, you could have a lengthy fight on your hands. It pays to make yourself a nuisance, I was informed. However, this process will incur even more delays and all the while your pride-and-joy will continue corroding before your very eyes.

The specialist returned with the replacement bulb and fitted it. I asked him how much I owed ... he said there was no charge!!!

I really didn't expect my first genuine parts bill to cost me NOTHING!!! I fully expected to take out a second mortage. The specialist stated that MB ownership does not necessarily have to result in big bills. He added that you would have to be mad to pay MB dealer bills though. They overcharge. For example, the bulb I had replaced for FREE cost 67p. An MB dealer would charge £2.50p, before fitting. I was assured a good specialist should be able to offer the exact same standards of service, or better, at an hourly rate of between 30 - 50% of the main dealers AND still use genuine MB parts. Most will insist upon the latter.

Feeling more cheerful, I decided to direct the conversation towards the rust issue. I remarked about the number of MB cars in the garage. It was full. There was a virtually new, top-of-the-range sporting MB in front of mine and a range of MBs all about me, many of them now regared as classics. Business must be good, very good, I thought.

I pointed to the 3 just spots on my car and explained the difficulties I was having with MB. I must have touched a nerve because I hadn't expected the specialist's response. To say that he was critical of MB dealers would be an understatement. He reserved his worst criticisms for MB who he believes have cut back on quality to such an extent that purchasing a new Merc' was a chancey investment. He remarked that an MB of 10 to 15+ years of age was by far a much better built car, inside and out and REALLY built to last. Modern MBs, by comparison, corrode easily - all of them - and their electrical systems are equally temperimental. The specialist's business was flourishing because MB's was going down the toilet.

He responded to my surprise at seeing a nearly new MB parked in his garage. He informed me that it was not unusual for new cars to be serviced by specialists. But if their owners are prepared to do this it probably means they already have AA cover, or similar. They automatically loose their Mobilo Life cover for having their vehicles serviced outside of the MB dealership. But going for independent servicing rather than main dealer servicing means their owners care about money and the costs of ownership.

The specialist then pointed to an E class (I think) situated almost alongside my car ... another 'W' ... same year as mine, but this was an estate model.

I thought it needed a good wash because it was covered with tiny mud splashes. He pointed to the bonnet and the wings; he opened a front door and pulled back a door seal. As my eyes followed his finger I began to realise that the patches were not dried mud at all ... it was rust ... small patches that were spreading out and beginning to link up. Under the door seal was clear evidence of more rust. This car was the same age age mine but instead of 3 patches it had dozens of spots of rust all over and inside it. It put me in mind of a certain Italian car maker and their vehicles reputation as rust magnets. Have MB quality standards fallen this low?

NOW I REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT MB RUST LOOKS LIKE AND JUST HOW BAD IT CAN GET. CAN MB REALLY JUSTIFY THIS LEVEL OF CORROSION AND EXPLAIN IT AWAY AS UNTREATED RUST SPOTS???

I left the specialist with a new bulb and I hadn't even put my hand in my coat pocket to take out my wallet. That felt good. I also drove away in an MB that only had 3 rust spots. That felt good too. Then I thought, 'What will my car look like in a year or two?' Now you know why I've got the jitters.

There was one side issue which we also debated at length ... MobiloLife Cover. The specialist's advice was to join the AA, it'll cost far less in the long term. This is another 'loyalty scheme' designed to relieve punters of their money. Read the small print and decide for yourself.

I learned a few other things today about MB which I cannot repeat here because I would be treading in actionable territory (libel laws). Suffice it to say that that the link between high quality and high cost does not always hold true.

Something else the specialist said which I only half took in was something about the E class being voted the worst car in America last year. Was this a JD Power conclusion? More importantly, what is MB doing about it?

REGARDS Phil

 

[jberks]

Phil,
Firstly, what's the technique for the bulb diagnostic. I put my 9 year old in the driver's seat and have her press all the buttons whilst I watch from outside.
Secondly, I wouldn't worry too much about your 3 spots. Mine also has 3 spots yet others, some younger, are wrecks. It is a gamble, but one you and I seem to be winning so far.

I fully agree about specialists. I put mine in a couple of weeks ago for a number of things including a dash bulb. All done but they will have to order a pipe and couldn't find one of the faults I had reported. And the charge - "We didn't do much so we'll sort it out next time"! Last time I picked it up in the rain, which reminded me that I needed a new wiper blade. I dived back in, "can i buy a wiper blade from you?" figuring I'd get home and do it in the dry of my garage. 2 mins later, a damp lad comes in and says - "all done!" - He'd fitted it - and the charge - nothing!
MB charged me £25 for the same service.

My hesitation is that MB have us by the short and curlies with the corrosion. True, yours and mine aren't too bad, but MB are paying to fix the 3 spots on mine and given the quality of their (farmed out admittedly) body shop, that will run into 3 figures. (on top of the boot lock and door they did last time). If I didn't have FMBSH - they wouldn't. The Mobilio isn't worth the extra charge and lower service, but the corrosion warranty is.(And they know it!)

As I have put in other threads, my advice is MB for service only. When they ring up with 'extras', unless its a £20-£40 hit, I generally refuse and have the specialist do it later. And I use the specialist for everything else. When my AMS and o2 sensors went, I limped straight past the dealer, and drove a further 5 miles in heavy traffic to the specialist.

 

[philharve]

Hi jberks

I haven't been active in the Forum for a few weeks ... very busy, lots of travel.

Concerning your inquiry, re: bulb diagnostic. My old Toyota had a blown bulb detection circuit and when ANY bulb failed an indicator lit on the display. It remain lit until the bulb was replaced. Helpful? Yes, but WHICH bulb had blown. This is where you employ the second observer: wife, girlfriend, willing neighbour. Unless it's obvious, like a headlight, you have to run through a checklist of most likely options.

MB has taken this process a step further (just a step) and it can detect WHICH lighting circuit has failed. Pity it doesn't identify which bulb.

The technique is to switch the car off which resets the detector, then turn on the ignition. If each lighting circuit is activated in turn, counting 3 seconds between each turn, the exterior lighting warning indicator will blink when the circuit with the defective bulb is activated. If this circuit is not activated the indicator remains off. That's the difference with the Toyota.

I took me about 30 seconds to understand the specialist's description of the process. I thought he was describing a 'failed bulb' detection process. No, it's not as clever as that.

I saw the detector in action when I stopped the car after first noticing the indicator was lit. I merely mis-interpreted it. When I switched the engine off to read my handbook and switched it back on to continue my journey, the indicator was 'off'. Ahh ... intermittent failure ... corroded socket, I thought. Out with the WD40, I thought. Wrong!

When I was ready to move off again, I touched the foot brake thus activating the brake lighting circuit, the indicator suddenly lit. It remained on until I arrived at the specialist garage.

Sorry, but the technique won't tell you which side of the car is affected. This is where you need a second observer or a convenient white wall to watch reflections off.

To your second point. My rusty window channel had been repaired previously under warranty whilst in the hands of the original owner. My MB's now just about 5-year old. That's an old car in MB's terms, I was informed. But that's a very young MB in my view. And I thought 30+ years was elderly in Merc' years. How times have changed.

I remember you stating in another thread that you use MB dealers to detect problems but get specialists to do the repairs. It makes good economic sense.

I'm considering putting pictures of my rusty patches on this website. If I show other members mine, do you think they will show me theirs? Some descriptions seem unbelievable, but after yesterday, I will tend to believe them in future. Is there a photographic archive of rust-ridden Merc's some place?

Since detecting the rusty window channel I now go out of my way to look at the condition of other Merc's I park close to. Sure enough, the problem is typical and commonplace.

I would like to end on a positive note. The rust issue aside, this is still a very nice car to drive. No other faults have manifest. Other drivers always make room or take greater care when in the presence of a Mercedes, including the police. I am no different. Deference, respect, class-consciousness, wealth ... the marque definitely has something extra. But for how much longer.

REGARDS Phil

 

[Ramius]

My heart sinks when I read of rusty Mercs and poor service from MBUK. I drive a 1991 300TE24 which, to this day remains rust free other than a slight bubbling on the front arches. Thats normal and expected.

Tens of thousands of pounds today with MB seems to deliver so little in the ideals of quality and service. These cars that you guys all own are deemed to be mine in the future ( Wont by newer than 6 years ) ( Hate loosing money )

Now I will keep the W124, I cant change it can I? I'll end up with a car that needs to be driven and kept in the desert or a rust bucket that a proud and dilligent owner has given up on!

 

[woodturner-fran]

for what its worth, I have a e200 w210 1996 113K (w210.035) with no rust to speak of. There is a tiny mark near to boot lock (as described elsewhere) but I treated that with a bit of fertan, then touch up paint and then waxed it and the job is oxo.

I don't have this car long and when I first read of the problems (yes after I bought it) I nearly had a heart attack.

I put it up on the lift in the garage and went over it with a fine tooth comb and there is nothing there. As a precaution however, I am going to put a protective coat all over the bottom of the car, pull down the wheel arch covers and do a good coat all over it.

Now, having written this post when I go out in the morning the car will look like a panda bear, except with rust spots instead of black!

Fran

 

[jberks]

Fran,
I think at '96 you're pretty safe. As I understand it, they didn't start getting silly until around 98 ish. I also believe that post 02 cars are fine too.

 

[Michaut]

Rust

Does any one has a list if MB types and years of production affected by these paint systems that caused so many rust problems
Michaut