Electronics on modern cars.

[busby20]

I was reading through some previous threads and it struck me that a major cause of modern cars isn't mechanical failures, but more often an electronic part failure.

This kind of knocks on the head the old cliche that the "engine's good for 200.000 miles " etc. as increasingly, more cars will be consigned to the scrap heap due to unreliable / expensive, electronic - or emission failure long before the engine etc. gives up.

My own recent experiences with car electronics would seem to support this theory. A good few years ago - in the early stages of car electronics - I re-built and customised a car, which was good enough to make the front page of a car magazine, however, years later I replaced an engine in a vauxhall Omega but couldn't get it to run - which was eventually tracked down to an inexpensive crankshaft sensor that was incompatible with the car's existing ECU.

More recent problems consist of my SLK 230 Komp. requiring some very expensive electronic components, and my old C180 defying my local indie, "expert" even after all sorts of components have been replaced. I was at a car auction recently and a 55, and 03 plated fords were wheeled into the auction and sold as "non runners" due to major electronic failures.

I think that Malcolm (Television) and some other forum members provide some very helpfull and thought provoking ideas as to what's failing, and how to cure, those elusive electronics - keep it up all.

 

[type49]

I think I've changed one engine in the last year, so yes, engines do go on & on. Suspension components are not as good as they used to be either but certainly the major problem is electrics, or more so, diagnosing the electrics

 

[television]

I think I've changed one engine in the last year, so yes, engines do go on & on. Suspension components are not as good as they used to be either but certainly the major problem is electrics, or more so, diagnosing the electrics

I have said many times that the day must come when MB workshops start employing at least one good electronics man for their group, Electronics is miles apart From mechanical engineering, nothing moves to the eye, but thousands of moving signals are taking place every few seconds. As said diagnostics is one thing, and what it is telling you is another.

You can take for example ABS, when it first started you had the module and the pump, next came the pump with a built in module, this has effectively doubled the price of a replacement, now they incorporate the BAS signals and more.

Will it be better tomorrow, who knows

 

[jberks]

Its true, but I'm optomistic. Sure, dealers will only ever replace whole units but there is an entire industry, still in it's infancy at present, built around repairing the usually very minor faults these components develop. Often little more than a poor solder joint that disables a £40,000 car.
In the 'old' days, every town had a TV repair man, now, aside from Malcolm's lucky home town, you have to search hard. All due to the low cost of replacements. I suspect many of these engineers will soon return, fixing ECUs, SAMs and all the other modules in a modern car.
As an example of this change, 3 years ago, I tried to get my dash cluster repaired (usual 210 pixel issue). I approached everone I could find, from BBA-reman, speedofixer to small independents and lots of others. The answer was always the same. Sorry but no ...
18 months later you have a choice

 

[Dosco]

Quote - "As said diagnostics is one thing, and what it is telling you is another".

The sad fact is training of staff on 'how to' interpret what the diagnostics is saying is far from ideal. Because the cost of labour is so high the theory is total reliance on the technology to do the reporting then react to it usually by the 'change it' approach until it stops what it is doing.

The skill set required to fully understand what the electronic diagnostics are reporting is without doubt in short supply, even employers do not seem to be over enthusiastic in demanding such skills but fall back on the technology to do the thinking and the human element to 'change it until it works'

I am mindfull of my time with Bosch when the automotive technical guys really knew their stuff (Fuel Injection and ABS in particular) and could diagnose almost anything within their brief over the phone, but the end game was always "replace the unit as we do not recommend dismantling or attempting a repair neither do we stock or supply individual components for a repair" and that was in the late 70's and early 80's

Quote "Suspension components are not as good as they used to be either"

I am sure this is correct but I would also suggest that the introduction of speed ramps, ripple strips and other 'calming' measures take their toll. My E240 failed its MOT last year because of a problem in the steering components
not because of poor quality but because wear and tear had been accelerated by such items/devices on the roads, something the MOT station comes across more and more these days.

I am now depressed having written all that negative stuff, even more as I now have to go out and purchase a MAS requiring lots of £'s.

 

[eric242340]

The manufacturers are responsible for this way of thinking. In the seventies they purposely made it impossible for Mechanics to repair the parts and therefore brought about a new type of Mechanic (the fitter) simply changing parts. Then we moved into the electronic era and many things became electronically controlled, at this time we did not even have test equiment. So I must say that these were the guys who pioneered the art of Diagnostics.

Nowadays there are Electricians, but in most countries there is no real (Make specific) training for them. Working on both Mercedes and BMW, there is a huge difference and a challange to the electrician/technician. But the Manufacturer offers no training.

Unfortunately, the repairing of SAM/ECU/Mudules is a risky and labour intensive way of going (allthough I prefer this way) we cant always get the parts to do it and trust me the manufacturer will not help.

As to steering and suspension, its gone from bad to worse, as they are producing parts that they know wont last. Gone are the 200,000 miles job and I fully blame the Manufacturer for this.

It is all about costings and the Manufaturers costing departments tear a perfectly good design appart. Simply to make more profit? What ever happend to quality built cars? Please dont blame the Mechanics for this type of thinking, give me the sixties any day when repairing a car gave the mechanic some real satisfaction. Nowadays it takes hours of labour and diagnostics to locate a simple problem, and the effective repair means the customer is only going to complain about the bill. It takes all the enjoyment out of the job.

 

[eric242340]

The manufacturers are responsible for this way of thinking. In the seventies they purposely made it impossible for Mechanics to repair the parts and therefore brought about a new type of Mechanic (the fitter) simply changing parts. Then we moved into the electronic era and many things became electronically controlled, at this time we did not even have test equiment. So I must say that these were the guys who pioneered the art of Diagnostics.

Nowadays there are Electricians, but in most countries there is no real (Make specific) training for them. Working on both Mercedes and BMW, there is a huge difference and a challange to the electrician/technician. But the Manufacturer offers no training.

Unfortunately, the repairing of SAM/ECU/Modules is a risky and labour intensive way of going (allthough I prefer this way) we cant always get the parts to do it and trust me the manufacturer will not help.

As to steering and suspension, its gone from bad to worse, as they are producing parts that they know wont last. Gone are the 200,000 miles job and I fully blame the Manufacturer for this.

It is all about costings and the Manufaturers costing departments tear a perfectly good design appart. Simply to make more profit? What ever happend to quality built cars? Please dont blame the Mechanics for this type of thinking, give me the sixties any day when repairing a car gave the mechanic some real satisfaction. Nowadays it takes hours of labour and diagnostics to locate a simple problem, and the effective repair means the customer is only going to complain about the bill. It takes all the enjoyment out of the job.

 

[television]

Well, we dont make houses or women like we use to, in a way thank god, most of the cars rusted away before they had a chance to go wrong, and the women stayed in awful relationships, the houses were damp, cold and so boring. from the technology side we would not be here.

I can now adjust my nearside mirror, without clambering over the passenger seat doing 70 on the motorway.

I love my modern MB thank you, and as for lifting engines out for new bearings, now I can just press a few buttons without getting dirty.

 

[Ultymate]

I don't know if this happens with car dealerships yet but some commercial vehicle repairers when you take a vehicle in for diagnostic checks it's connected via modem to the factory for diagnosis and then the dealer just carries out the repairs as directed by the factory. This deffinately happens with Ford commercials in the UK

 

[television]

I don't know if this happens with car dealerships yet but some commercial vehicle repairers when you take a vehicle in for diagnostic checks it's connected via modem to the factory for diagnosis and then the dealer just carries out the repairs as directed by the factory. This deffinately happens with Ford commercials in the UK

This would make some good sense, £50k goes nowhere when equipping each garage and is expensive, and it soon goes out of date. experienced technicians at the central station would soon get to know the slight differences in the wave forms on real time analysis and to be able to offer much better advice.

 

[Hibbo]

Electronics are not expensive nowadays.

The prices charged by manufacturers for electronic parts is obscene.

I stand to be corrected, but NO electronic technology in even the poshest of cars is expensive. Look at how cheap consumer electronics are. Yes, the car companies may have to spend alot developing the software, but the hardware is all generic and costs next to nothing. I very much doubt that ANY ECU contains more than fifty quids' worth of hardware.

Please correct me

 

[eric242340]

I don't know if this happens with car dealerships yet but some commercial vehicle repairers when you take a vehicle in for diagnostic checks it's connected via modem to the factory for diagnosis and then the dealer just carries out the repairs as directed by the factory. This deffinately happens with Ford commercials in the UK

This is definately happening. BMW have an internet system using the MOST sytem on the car to annalyze and to correct computer settings. They simply connet the Group Tester to the car and make a phone call, the system the locks in to the factory control centre and starts the scan. Obviously they cannot annalize mechanical problems but can predict or pinpoint a mechanical failure reasonably well. But they can fix or report an electronic problem 95 percent.

Ive been told that Benz are working on a better system, again using the cars MOST system to talk. And Benz now have WIS.net for information. An online workshop manual/modifications/technical bulletins/technical service data.

What will be next, maybe we mechanics should look for a new job

 

[eric242340]

Electronics are not expensive nowadays.

The prices charged by manufacturers for electronic parts is obscene.

I stand to be corrected, but NO electronic technology in even the poshest of cars is expensive. Look at how cheap consumer electronics are. Yes, the car companies may have to spend alot developing the software, but the hardware is all generic and costs next to nothing. I very much doubt that ANY ECU contains more than fifty quids' worth of hardware.

Please correct me

I was talking with friends the other night and apparantly the hardware for an ECU, not including the case, would be around 15 pounds Stirling if made in china. And before you all say (made in China? for Benz?) think again. The 140 models engine wiring looms were made in Tailand and the ABS units made in the Phillipines.

This does not mean the parts are rubbish, but whats Mercedes profit margine and who is paying the bill The owner?

 

[television]

Ive been told that Benz are working on a better system, again using the cars MOST system to talk. And Benz now have WIS.net for information. An online workshop manual/modifications/technical bulletins/technical service data.
:

Please eric not using the MOST bus as the is for components in the audio visual network and nothing else on some late cars from 06-03 on

 

[Dosco]

Electronics are not expensive nowadays.

The prices charged by manufacturers for electronic parts is obscene.

I stand to be corrected, but NO electronic technology in even the poshest of cars is expensive. Look at how cheap consumer electronics are. Yes, the car companies may have to spend alot developing the software, but the hardware is all generic and costs next to nothing. I very much doubt that ANY ECU contains more than fifty quids' worth of hardware.

Please correct me

I have just paid out around £187 (EuroCarParts) for a Bosch Air Flow Meter (Merc price £245ish). Given the various mark-ups and margins I would guess that the manufacturing costs would be in the region of £15 to £25 including packaging for a service part, for items that are current and fitted to new vehicles it would be a lot less.

 

[Dosco]

Hibbo put me out of my misery and do tell what that tray looking thing in yellow is in your Avatar.

 

[eric242340]

Please eric not using the MOST bus as the is for components in the audio visual network and nothing else on some late cars from 06-03 on

Hi Malcolm, I cannot verify this information, it was simply friends around china on a conference chat. But two of them are German and work for BMW dealerships. One in Beijing and one in Chongching. Have not seen this myself and its only on general chatter. So how, on earth, MOST comes into this Im really not sure. They could be talking B--l S--t for all I know. But they have been very reliable sources of information over the past 10 years. Hope this claifies it a little.

 

[television]

Someone is winding you up there eric, but not that important as to how they do it right now.

In the domestic field many things now are fitted with a socket to RS332 it to the main factory, a very good way to upgrade failed eproms where you do nort have the dump code.

 

[eric242340]

Someone is winding you up there eric, but not that important as to how they do it right now.

In the domestic field many things now are fitted with a socket to RS332 it to the main factory, a very good way to upgrade failed eproms where you do nort have the dump code.

I think, on this one, ill simply have to wait and see. Only time tells all as they say

 

[television]

I think, on this one, ill simply have to wait and see. Only time tells all as they say

The only snag will be getting joined up into the system, and only those with huge accounts will be able to access it, this is so in the electronics field right now, so indies could find it easier to compete.