ESP & HANDLING IN THE WET!

[fionanallan]

Just bought our very first Merc. After much deliberation we opted for a C220 CDI 6 speed manual. We love everything about the car...with one exception...handling in the wet!
Can anyone advise me please if it is normal for the car lose its grip in the wet when coming out of a bend. It's not that we go particulary fast. It seems that the ESP kicks in at relatively low speeds and causes the car to give a sliding feel. It's a horrible feeling. You feel as if the car is going to slide, but it corrects itself. Dont know if Im describing this very well! Not very technically minded! It's getting to the stage that Im losing all confidence in the car. Even if Im taking off on a hill in wet conditions, the front wheels spin if you try to take away to quickly. When this happens the exclamation light in the dash lights up.
I've never had experience of this ESP, so Im not sure if this is the way the car should be or if there is a fault in the ESP.
Can anuone help me....please!

 

[996jimbo]

Front wheels spinning? I've got an older C class which is rear wheel drive and rather assumed that the later ones were rear wheel drive as well.

As far as ESP is concerned, it kicks in if there is any loss of traction so I guess the answer is that you would have a slide without ESP, but ESP couldn't of itself cause a slide. The problem of wheelspin on take off (and slide) is just down to grip. I get the problem a lot on pulling away but now generally have the car in W mode so's it starts in 2nd gear which gives a much smoother ride, especially in traffic. Unless I want to be quick off the mark.

My criticism of ESP is that it can be a bit harsh - I had a nice slide at speed coming off a roundabout in the wet then ESP suddenly kicked in and suddenly I wasn't sliding which meant a bit of rocking from side to side (as it were). There again I only pushed it that far on the basis that ESP was there in the first place and would do 'something' to control matters.

I suspect part of your problem is that you are expecting the front to slide where infact it is the back that is moving, and being a diesel is a bit easier to break traction (at low revs) by heavy accelerating. Try driving in W for a bit. Assume that ESP will stop you from spinning the car, ease back and relax a little and then see what you think.

 

[fionanallan]

Thanks for the quick reply. We should have said that the car is a 6 speed manual. Im presuming that the 'w' setting is related to automatic?
You're spot on with your description when you say rocking...thats exactly what the car does. It kinda rocks when you accelerate out of a bend in the wet. We're still experimenting with the car, but I have to say Im not sure about this! Its the strangest sensation! From your reply, Im taking it that this is the norm due to ESP.Would a change of tyres make any diffrence? This rocking sensation is not happening at excessive speed. We are not 'boy racers'!
Thanks again for your reply.

 

[996jimbo]

Well I'm no scientist but the rocking is as a result of: As the car slides it has sideways energy. The ESP halts the slide by reducing power to the wheels so they can regain traction. As the tyres grip the sideways momentum is transfered into the suspension springs on one side which compress and then rebound causing the slight rocking. The degree of rocking (compression and rebound) is controlled by the shock absorbers.

'W' does concern the auto gearbox so doesn't apply to your case. I don't know a lot about Mercedes other than the one I've got - do you know if you have a sports / economy type switch? It would change the throttle response from a 'sharp and eager' type setting to a 'gentle more casual' type setting. Some manual cars have them but no idea if yours does.

Tyres may have some effect but (in my opinion) basically most modern tyres for general use are pretty much of a standard, and unless your's are worn or particularly rubbish I wouldn't expect new tyres to stop you wheelspinning in the wet. Diesels do tend to have more kick at lower revs.

Hopefully someone else with experience of a Mercedes Diesel will be able to give you more advice, but on the basis that this is your first Mercedes and most other cars are front wheel drive I suspect you just need a bit more time to get used to rear wheel drives. I know I do!

 

[blassberg]

With Manual you could start of in second gear in slippery conditions which would mimick the W setting.

Was your previous car petrol? My wife drives petrol and runs at higher revs in the diesel before changing gear than i do. I change earlier and boot the accelerator more. There may be some re-calibration of your style required in slippy conditions.

Finally, beware icy roads / black ice / snow especially on a gradient up or down. Your experience will be more 'involving' because you are now rear wheel driven. Suggest you find somewhere safe to practice on those surfaces. It's possible to be facing the wrong way very quickly. Something to be aware of rather than scared of.

 

[jberks]

All my experiences of ESP are good. Its great, I can just boot it and let the esp sort it out if/when things get messy.

I thought all Mercs bar the A class are rear wheel drive so presumably you won't have front wheel spin. If the car is new, there is a vague possibility that they tyres haven't fully bedded in yet but this shouldn't make too much difference.

Years ago, I followed a truck for several miles. I wasn't aware that it was spilling diesel until I tried to stop and discovered that my tyres were soaked in the stuff - very scary - was just about to bounce it into a nearby ditch - this being preferable to flying over a blind brow, when it finally gripped, but this was pre abs/esp and the locked wheels burned off the diesel. What would have happened these days I'm not sure.

Also if you have very wide wheels (like many have these days) and are driving in the wet, you will have less traction than a coventional setup, but more in the dry so the difference could be quite noticable.

 

[shrekky]

All of my experiences with esp are good too,as jberk says you can boot it and let it sort it out....:lol:..........the company i work for had a older sprinter without it,and that could get pretty hairaising sometimes,but the new one we have(well newish,couple of years old now)..........has it,and since we got it,put it this way i've never been sideways round a roundabout since,and not because i was driving to fast either....lol....but skidding on fuel or oil or something that has been dropped,or mixed with rain,and i personally think it should be made standard on all cars and hate a vehicle without it,except mine that is...thats great fun....lol

 

[pascal]

I think that ESP is the best active safety device fitted to cars since ABS.

Okay, it feels a bit weird (like someone else is driving for you) at first, but in the wet it is marvelous. ESP also incorporates traction control. The wheels will spin for a split second before it cuts in. The system can be switched off (some MBs), but only remains off at low speeds. If you are continuing to get wheel spin the solution could be either of these:

• Too heavy on the accelerator, change your driving style
• Poor grip tyres (worn or low performance), or put on wider wheels/tyres

The CDI 220 is not that powerful. If the light does come on, MB recomends you change your driving style.

 

[parthiban]

I read that you said that this is your first Mercedes, could that also mean that this is your first rear wheel drive car?

If so, don't worry about it, it takes a while to get used to the handling of a rear wheel drive car. In the wet, its a good idea to be a little gentler with the accelerator, but as you've experienced, ESP is a great system that should keep you out of trouble most of the time. However, its always best to simply drive more carefully in the wet.

If the wheels are starting to spin under very mild acceleration though, then it might be a good idea to have a full geometry done on the car to make sure all the wheels are making the best possible contact with the road

 

[OlafMaxwell]

I have driven many diesel cars and the Merc was the first rear wheel drive diesel. It is very easy to spin the wheels because of the torque, even in front wheel drive where you have engine weight to help grip. It is also quite easy to spin the rear wheels in the Merc.

Two things are very important, one is tyre pressures and the other is tyre type. I dont mind admitting I found the original Michelins on the Merc to be lethal. In the past I always found Michelins lethal in the wet and always avoided them whether it was for the motor bike or the car. I am sure some will disagree so maybe its a case of driving style suiting some tyre types. I have a lot more confidence in the Pirelli P6000 I have been using since the original tyres were taken off.

 

[fionanallan]

ESP & HANDLING IN THE WET...THANKS TO ALL!

A big thanks to all who replied to our question re the above!
From what we gather from your replies, its a case of SLOW,SLOW,SLOW in the wet or any adverse conditions at all! We're finding it a bit strange, as we are not travelling at excessive speed when this happens, but from your replies, it seems that we are not alone in our experience!
We now understand a little bit more about this ESP thing, and we're gathering that the rocking sensation we're feeling is the car finding its grip in the wet. This coupled with the whole rear wheel drive thing is gonna take a bit of getting used to! However, we will get the geometry checked on the car...just to be on the safe side. Also we think a little research on tyre types might be in order!
We were begining to thank the car had a fault in the ESP, but it seems to us that it's just the norm! We'll keep you posted on our progress!
Anyway...a big thanks to all who took the time to reply. We really do appreciate it, and if anyone has any other advice or information, we would be delighted and grateful to hear from you.
Thanks to all.

 

[blassberg]

hoorah for forums

 

[pascal]

You are welcome Fiona. I'll just merge these two threads together.

Pascal

 

[SLinKyjoe]

Has anybody ever tried the following:-

when the ESP activates, flooring the throttle and letting the electronics work out the problem? I only say this as I hear a lot of driving schools in Germany are teaching students to do this. it seems fear makes us lift off and so the electronics to help us deactiavte.......somebody must have given it ago

 

[pascal]

Me, when I was test driving the car (not fully though) (Ps: told the sales man before I did it).

Did it a few times in the wet here. Once after pulling off a side road.

Did it on a roundabout twice. First time I lifted off, second time it meandered left/right/left/right even a fter leaving the roundabout. Scary though.

 

[jberks]

I've done this in the snow. Just booted it, back end twitched and then it just burbled off in whatever direction I chose.

 

[shrekky]

well when i first started driving a vehicle wiyh ESP,at first when it was coming on,i used to back off the throttle,i dare say as most do,what i found is that with vechiles with high engine braking power(especially deisels),sometimes the ESP would drop out before the situation was resolved completely,but as i grew to know the vehicle,what it can and cant do,I personally found it is better to stay in the throttle and let the eletronics work it out.....................now just got to remember to take my foot of the throttle in my car.........:lol:..........and i agree with pascal it is the best safety device since ABS,and working in conjunction with ABS,it is definitely alot alot harder to lose control of the vehicle.should be standard on all vehicles..............with a "off" button though so you can still have fun :-D