Have I just been knobbed?

[squealinneil]

Over the last week the radiator light on my '89 2.6 auto has been coming on. The coolant level does drop by about 2 inches after topping up, but there was still coolant clearly visible in the expansion tank and the car wasn't running hot. It was booked in for a 12K service today so I just kept an eye on it.

I used the car to go to Windsor Races last night and was stuck in a crawling traffic jam for about 30 mins. The temp rose higher than normal but was no where near the red.

Today I brought it to the independent I use. He was busy signing in other customers so I checked the expansion tank to see if there was any difference. The COOLANT (I emphasise the word coolant), acid greeny yellow in colour, was 2 inches low but apart from that all was well.

Get the call to pick the car up this p.m. "Any surprises?" I ask. "Yes, the ATF is mixing with the coolant in the rad. New rad needed." I go over to pick up the car and the expansion tank is now full of bright red ATF. I say how can this be, when I checked it this morning it was full of coolant?

They don't know what happened. No idea. The mechanic who worked on it said the expansion tank was full of ATF when he opened the bonnet. They say the rad has a small leak (hence the drop in level) anyway so I'd need a new rad in any case. In fact, lucky me, I have two problems which can be fixed with one new rad.

Apart from the timing being amazing, in that the expansion tank filled up with ATF in the time between me leaving the car & the guy opening the bonnet, there was water and ATF in the dimple of the expansion tank and dribbles of something oily below the ex. tank. They said they added no fluids.

Should I give a big sigh, light a ciggie then roll over and fall asleep? After all, I feel like I've been rogered good and proper.

What do you think?

 

[996jimbo]

Errr, what's ATF and how is it supposed to be getting in to the rad?

 

[squealinneil]

ATF = Automatic Transmission Fluid.

The transmission fluid is cooled by the same radiator as the engine coolant. Presumably, somethings broken/worn out/corroded allowing the two fluids to co-mingle.

 

[tom7035]

Hi Neil.
What your indy says CAN happen, but what has to be determined is whether it HAS.
How about your ATF level and any indication of contamination by coolant? If the ATF has contaminated the coolant, then the opposite has to be the case also IMO.
Try to get to the bottom of this sharpish, you don't want your gearbox ruined by running with a mixture of Antifreeze/ATF!
Good luck.

 

[squealinneil]

Tom,

ATF level is above the max mark on the stick. No evidence of coolant in the tranny, yet. There's a tiny bit of mayo forming on the expansion tank cap. The independent said the pressure in the autobox would stop water getting in - pressure was pushing the ATF out - but not to drive the car except back home and to get it fixed ASAP. Strange they didn't suggest ordering parts or making an appt. to get it all fixed. Also strange that the mechanic who discovered the ATF in the expansion tank came out to the car while the number 2 guy and I were looking in the engine bay and was hanging around while I questioned Mechanic No. 2 in the office. Normally, they're under a bonnet, beavering away.

No matter what actually happened they are going to say "Sh1t happens. Nothing to do with us, guv." and I can't think of anyway to prove otherwise. How can I determine whether the thing just let go or if it was broken/damaged by them? The rad looks the same.

I KNOW there was no ATF in the expansion tank when I dropped it off. I checked the tank on the garage's forecourt. I can understand the thing breaking and I'd accept that if they'd told me it happened on a road test, but to tell me it was like that when they opened the bonnet is just not believable.

It is especially not believable, I've just noticed, because the service was carried out at 80,290 (from the invoice) and the mileage is now 80,305. I live 5 miles away, which means they road tested my car for 10 miles AFTER discovering the fluids were mixing.

I'm going back there tomorrow morning for further talks.

 

[tom7035]

Very sus. indeed. Doesn't inspire much confidence. I'd be inclined to seek another opinion elsewhere, as this is not something that can just be allowed to develop to see what happens. Pity you're not near Andy Gayle's place. (Haven't heard from Andy for some time, hope he's O.K.)
Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[PINBALL]

Has the new rad cured the problem?

Is the warning lamp now staying off?

How much was the job in total & cheaper compared to MB doing it?

10 miles road test should be adequate for seeing if water not leaking, praps they went for some parts to collect & used your car to do it & test running temp at same time.

Is it an approved MB rad or a factors copy special?

Is new clean anti-freeze same colour as old stuff when you last saw it?

Keith.

 

[squealinneil]

Is the warning lamp now staying off?

How much was the job in total & cheaper compared to MB doing it?

10 miles road test should be adequate for seeing if water not leaking, praps they went for some parts to collect & used your car to do it & test running temp at same time.

Is it an approved MB rad or a factors copy special?

Is new clean anti-freeze same colour as old stuff when you last saw it?

Keith.

The rad hasn't been replaced yet. They did the road test after discovering the expansion tank full of ATD i.e. with the ATF leaking into the coolant.

 

[MacMerc]

Yes, you have.

You have my sympathy, I've been there with other (non Mercedes) cars.

It's a bitter pill to swallow, and you will meet a wall of denials. Tell anyone who cares to listen that the garage is sh**e.

3 sure things in life
1.Death
2.Taxes
3. Getting screwed by dealers (Stealers- thanks Turnipsock I liked that one :mrgreen: )

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

 

[squealinneil]

It isn't a dealer, it's an independent place I've used for 5 years.

 

[42864]

Yes you have --- take the car home drain and refill with plain water run engine untill operating temp reached then check coolant for contamination, don't use antifreeze as you will be draining the system again whatever the results -- its a shame to waste it, even if you drain into a receptable you always lose some

dave

 

[squealinneil]

42864,

Isn't there a danger of ruining the tranny if there is a leak & I'm running it with water mixed with ATF in it?

 

[turnipsock]

I would go along with 42864. Fill it with water and take it for run. If there is stuff getting into the transmission then thee isn't much difference between pure water and coolant (neither will work in a box).

If you are really worried, just leave it in Park and let it run for a while, then check the expansion tank.

 

[blassberg]

I would go along with 42864. Fill it with water and take it for run. If there is stuff getting into the transmission then thee isn't much difference between pure water and coolant (neither will work in a box).

If you are really worried, just leave it in Park and let it run for a while, then check the expansion tank.

I'm out of my depth on this one, but the garage said that there wouldn't be an ingress into the box 'cos of the pressure difference. So water ok by that theory, supporting 42864 / Turnipsock.

 

[tom7035]

Water ingress to tranny?

After the car has been run and stopped, the pressure in the cooling system remains for some time while that in the tranny will not. Wouldn't this permit coolant to contaminate the ATF? (or should I get my coat!)

(I can't help but feel uneasy, as Neil admits the coolant level drops a couple of inches after topping up, and his ATF level is above the max. mark, could it be his ATF in the gearbox is sitting on top of a pool of coolant?)

 

[TimN]

It is just poisssible that they had the car on ramps to check it's condition from underneath. They may well have checked the condition of the flexible hoses carrying the ATF to the radiator. The area of corrosion leading to the mixing of the ATF and coolant will almost certainly be immediately inside the radiator. Any Wiggling of the hoses would have stressed the pipe inside and thus opened up the fracture. They would almost certainly have had the engine running whilst underneath. Then after lowering the car might be the first time the engine bay was looked at.

I have to say that I once replaced a timing belt on a Honda. I was unaware that the bearings in the water pump were knackered. The act of removing the sideways pressure the belt applys to the bearings and then reapplying the pressure was enough to make the water pump leak. That according to the customer was of course all my fault.

7 Years from a radiator isn't particularly good. What is the general condition of the rest of the radiator? Are the hoses correctly retained. Any flapping about might put additional stress on the pipework within the radiator.

 

[squealinneil]

Tim,

They did have the car up on a ramp as they were changing the oil as part of the service. They discovered a small leak in the rad right at the bottom so I suppose what you suggest is possible. I'm trying to give them the benefit here.

This is a two owner car, the first from '89 until late '03. It was service by one MB main dealer until then & an independent (not mine) thereafter. It has all the stamps AND invoices detailing its history and was well looked after.

To the eye the rad looks fine, apart from a tiny weepage at the bottom. Because of the leak I'm reconciled to replacing the rad. I'm actually more concerned that they will have damaged my automatic transmission by driving it 10 miles in this state and telling me it's OK to drive it 5 miles home.

 

[42864]

niel - if as you say the garage drove the car on test for 10miles then you drove home a further 5 miles - total 15+ miles any damage has allready been done if the is a fault - after reading through your treads again I get an even stronger feeling that you are being conned, follow Turnipsocks advice

 

[paulcallender]

Some trades stick together - garages, for example - while some trades fiercly compete in the same area (remember the ice cream van wars?). You're going to have to find another garage, probably outside your area, to independently assess the car, or do the work yourself. If you're seeking compensation, then it will probably have to be a garage that looks at it and does the work.

So long as the problem is rectified and the gearbox oil is flushed and changed (and of course the coolant), then I doubt 20-30 miles of a small amount of contamination in the fluid, will have a significant effect on its long-term life. The earlier suggestion of filling the cooling system with pure water, running a little and assessing, seems sensible. Also, if its a garage, they can use their exhaust emissions equipment to 'sniff' the coolant before and after the test run, to determine if any HC (Hydrocarbons) are in it. This is the standard technique they use for finding if the head gasket is leaking, so it might produce a false positive if your head gasket is also suspect.

 

[justinb]

Is it possible that there is in fact no leak at all apart from the small seapage at the bottom of the rad you described? Is it also possible that they squirted a load of ATF fluid in the expansion tank?

Just a thought...

I had a similar problem with coolant leaking or at least the level going down. It was caused by the cap on the expansion tank having a worn out rubber seal so when the temp was up it just let a bit of fluid out.

I have the same problem which is why Ive now got two kids...think about it!

Seriously tho, I hope you get to the bottom of it.