Honda fuel cell car

[Splatt]

On Top Gear last night. The Honda CLARITY fuel cell car. Now up and running commercially (in California) No petrol or diesel no batteries just a hydrogen powered converter. Only emmission is water and the hooligan crew loved it ! Will do everything a conventional car will do and has hardly any moving parts , no engine no transmission just an electric motor. Not just a vision of the future more a glimpse of what is almost here .
Tell OPEC and the Ruskies what they can do with their petrol. Hydrogen is one of the most plentiful sustances on earth.

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

 

[Cole@MBS]

Very impressive, didn't look that bad either!!!

 

[Alex M Grieve]

No petrol or diesel no batteries just a hydrogen powered converter. has hardly any moving parts , no engine no transmission just an electric motor.

Drat - there goes my pension fund - heavily invested in CVJs, which have done well since the 1930s and are in most cars today.

So robust that there was not much aftermarket - now there will be no market either. Double drat!

 

[jberks]

Interestingly, the way I see it, the now bankrupt iceland could become the new Saudi. They have loads of geothermal energy they could use to generate electricity, which they pump through seawater (they're an island so have no issues there) and hence produce endless hydrogen which they could ship or pipe (using the fuel cell to power the ship) to europe and the US.
Interesting that Honda got there first. MB had a fuel cell A class 5 years ago and chrysler have been experimenting for a long time too.

 

[roofless]

on the same theme a uk company are developing new technology for f1 with hybrid flywheel technology with a view to road use http://revver.com/video/870505/flywheel-hybrid-technology/

 

[rf065]

Interesting that Honda got there first. MB had a fuel cell A class 5 years ago and chrysler have been experimenting for a long time too.

Nissan had a fuel cell prototype X-Trail over 5 years ago, they claimed it would be on sale by 2007 in California at least, still waiting & it's almost 2009 now.

Russ

 

[hawk20]

What's happened to the MB fuel cell car which was buzzing around yonks back?

And do they still use loads of electricity to get the hydrogen in useable form -electricity largely generated from coal and oil!

 

[Splatt]

Hydrogen can be generated by heat, by burning part of the product (methane) generated by the process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

y

 

[popuptoaster]

Hydrogen is very difficult to store as it can quite easily seep out of most current storage solutions, lots more research required before the infrastructure can be developed to supply fuel cell cars, a fully charged hydrogen tank in a car would be empty when you came back if you left it for a fortnight without using it, The energy density is also only around a quarter of that of fossil fuel if you store it as a liquid not to mention the energy used while cooling it down and keeping it insulated, theres more hydrogen in a gallon of petrol than there is in a gallon of liquid hydrogen!

 

[st4]

Hydrogen is very difficult to store as it can quite easily seep out of most current storage solutions, lots more research required before the infrastructure can be developed to supply fuel cell cars, a fully charged hydrogen tank in a car would be empty when you came back if you left it for a fortnight without using it, The energy density is also only around a quarter of that of fossil fuel if you store it as a liquid not to mention the energy used while cooling it down and keeping it insulated, theres more hydrogen in a gallon of petrol than there is in a gallon of liquid hydrogen!

The bit in bold I will queery slightly. A petrol car is c. 25% energy efficient, a fuel cell car nearer 80% efficient so the loss of energy density is recouped by the more efficient drive train of the fuel cell car.

Most cars are driven more than once a fortnight and the quirks of H2 fuel would soon set in, people who didn't use the cars often would just keep the tank low so not to much seeped out. Or they could sell it back to the fuel station?

In California it seemed Shell had the H2 situation covered and BMW seemed to manage keeping the fuel in the H2 powered 7 series in the tank.

 

[rf065]

I think this explains it better...............................

http://www.hybridcars.com/fuels/hydrogen/fuel-cell-challenges.html

Russ

 

[hawk20]

I think this explains it better...............................

http://www.hybridcars.com/fuels/hydrogen/fuel-cell-challenges.html

Russ

Great link; well worth reading. Puts the real difficulties with hydrogen into perspective.

 

[popuptoaster]

Thats what i said. :mrgreen:

 

[Stu_CDX]

I like hydrogen cars. I think they're the one way to reduce pollution in the world. Obviously, India, Shanghai and all that wont give up their Rover Montegos and Hindustan Ambassadors, but at least 90% of the world would have cleaner air!

My first car was going to be a Vauxhall Agila... I thought again and wondered, will there even be petrol by the time my insurance is low enough to drive the thing? Lol

 

[sib]

Im really into all this eco car stuff at the moment - i believe it's the future and the way things WILL and NEED TO go!

However, does beg the question as to why the likes of VW has pumped (pardon the pun) so much into their 'BlueMotion', SEAT into their 'EcoMotion', Ford 'EcoNetic', BMW 'EfficientDynamics', Peugeot 'BlueLion' etc etc technologies - which i believe to be neither full cell nor hydrogen.

I've been doing the maths about this over the last few days.

At present, in the States, hydrogen is on sale at around 9 USD per gallon (an average based on what i've read), and that Honda will take just over 4 gallons = 36 USD = 25 GBP.

Ok, one point to make here

- My calcs assume that the UK will be able to buy/produce the fuel at a similar price to the USA

Range on the car is around 260 miles. £25 into 260 miles equates to approx 9p per mile. Which is good. But then my SEAT Ibiza will do 400 miles on a full tank (£38 approx at present) - which is roughly the same.

HOWEVER, one place in the US is selling hydrogen at 2.75 USD per gallon, which converted equates to around £8 to do 260 miles.

If that's the case - count me in!

One other consideration though it the Chevrolet Volt.

Now, it's a marmite car in my opinion - but looks wise, it ticks my box far more than the Honda does - but it's not wholly clean. It's a PHEV plug-in hybrid, similar to that lovely looking Fisker thing - and what it does is similar to the Prius/Civic - put to much better use.

Basically, a summary:

- car is £20k, Vectra sized saloon
- 'funky' looks
- Runs on petrol and electric
- Uses the PHEV system which is similar to a car battery BUT the engine charges the car
- Range is 40 miles on electric (bear with me)
- Car runs 40 miles producing zero emissions and using no fuel
- At 40 miles, petrol engine kicks in and powers generator
- Petrol engine not connected to drivetrain at all
- Engine charges up battery through the generator whilst the battery runs the car whilst charging
- When done, engine turns off and car reverts to battery again
- Car can be charged from mains too using basic cables - basically run an extension from your house or office to do so.

For me this would mean:

- 13 mile commute to work each way would be done at zero emission and at no 'pence per mile' cost as such
- My once a week trip to the North East would probably use up a lot of the fuel in the tank, however they reckon a 700 mile or so range off a standard fill up (not sure how much that is!)
- Also, if the car arrived at my office with say 3 miles left on the battery to go, i'd plug it in and i would have no major issue in asking my boss if i was ok to do this. I think it really promotes the green thinking nature of my specific employer - who, i will add only has Civic and Prius hybrids on the fleet at the moment - and i think it will be good for business.

That's how i see it anyway.

The Chevy Volt and the Honda FCX Clarity are the future.

The current Civic and Prius - well to me personally - are rather useless!

 

[sib]

Oh, and for the record - i'm not a massive fan of the FCX Clarity

BUT

i think this looks great. It's Honda's CRZ - their modern day CRX (remember those??!) - due out back end of 2009, costing just over £20k - but using the current hybrid drive technology, which will be useless for me with my mainly over 30 mph driving BUT, i reckon Honda would be mad not to put into this the new PHEV or Hydrogen technology - and think it's just a matter of time. (2011/12 i reckon)

Looks good though doesnt it?

With Honda's past record too - this won't be too far off the mark for a production vehicle in terms of looks!!

 

[hawk20]

Looks like an elephant trod on the roof and squashed it. Looks like very limited headroom in the back. Looks like the wheels were meant for a car about twice as big -or were stolen from a teenager with a modded Nova.

BTW you have forgotten tax in your calcs. Hydrogen in US is virtually tax free (and probably subsidised to get things going). The fuel for your Seat is mainly tax. There will be tax on hydrogen fuels if these cars take off.

My advice would be to save your money. Lots of Hype. Lots of hopes. Lots of promise. Wait till the dust settles and we really see which technologies win out in the future.

 

[3146bj]

The major problem with hydrogen as a fuel is distributing and storing the gas over the vast areas where petrol is currently available at least as safely as petrol. It has taken over 100 years to create the existing facilities for petrol, and more than 50 years to provide facilities for LPG that are nowhere near the equal of those for petrol. And LPG has an enormous cost advantage that should make the provision of facilities financially attractive.

With respect to safety, bear in mind that hydrogen is much more flammable than petrol and is stored at very high pressure so any leak will result in a significant fire. How many times have people driven a car with a small petrol leak or spill (enough to smell it)? With hydrogen, it won't be smelt - the fire will be the first warning of a leak. Think of the Hindenberg - and that hydrogen was at very low pressure!

Not for me, thanks. It is just too risky given the current state of the art.

 

[psmart]

The current Civic and Prius - well to me personally - are rather useless!

Here's a little spreadsheet, using my 3 cars. Firstly, the mpg for each car is given, then the normalised mpg (taking away fuel cost disparities), then the cost per 10,000 miles, then the cost per 10,000 miles running on LPG - all prices are current Leeds prices!

How many families are really going to be able to afford a Diesel when the crunch hits?

 

[hawk20]

Here's a little spreadsheet, using my 3 cars. Firstly, the mpg for each car is given, then the normalised mpg (taking away fuel cost disparities), then the cost per 10,000 miles, then the cost per 10,000 miles running on LPG - all prices are current Leeds prices!

How many families are really going to be able to afford a Diesel when the crunch hits?

Ludicrous comparison. Why compare an ML270cdi diesel with a Prius? Not comparable in any way.

Second, of all the cars tested by Autocar the Prius is least able to deliver its falsely claimed combined mpg.

Third a fair comparison. The Lexus Hybrid 4x4 and the ML 320cdi were driven from Los Angeles to New York and the Mercedes used less fuel than the hybrid.

Fourth ; you ignore the high initial price of hybrids. Not economic.

The Hybrid idea, and switching off the engine when stopped, really only offers benefits in town with lots of stop/start and endless traffic lights. On a run it saves virtually nothing.

Diesels are forever!