Interesting take on the "Green Brigade"

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

This is quite interesting an pokes some holes in the thread about extra charges for "chelsea tractors" in London.

http://cars.uk.msn.com/greenmotoring/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1612340

 

[daveenty]

In London Mayor Ken Livingstone is waging a personal vendetta against cars that are taller than him

Just gotta love that bit

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

yep, that made me laugh too. Nice quote.

 

[Hibbo]

As it says in the article, most diesels will out MPG most hybrids. It seems as though the government is in cahoots with the big car makers to push hybrids on us. Just as they are in cahoots with the big oil companies to discourage the use of biofuels.

Environmental commitments? LIP SERVICE ONLY

 

[stever]

I thought the extra charges were based on CO2? So they will avoid demonising 4x4s - e.g thirsty sports cars would also be penalised. Diesels are very unlikely to have better mpg than a hybrid on the urban cycle, as this is where hybrids perform best.

 

[Hibbo]

I thought the extra charges were based on CO2? So they will avoid demonising 4x4s - e.g thirsty sports cars would also be penalised. Diesels are very unlikely to have better mpg than a hybrid on the urban cycle, as this is where hybrids perform best.

I do not have figures to hand and cannot be bothered digging for them, but I would make an educated guess that a small diesel car (such as a Clio 1.5DCi of Polo 1.4TDi) would out MPG an equivalent hybrid - even on the urban cycle.

Add to that the fact that it could be running on BioDiesel and the environmental benefits are clear.


PS. I have just ordered a DVD of the docufilm "who killed the electric car" from amazon. http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

I never got less than 48mpg from my Audi 1.9 TDi and that's quite a big car. On one memerable run to Luton I got a recorded 67mpg. That is considerably more than a Prius and I didn't feel like a complete berk driving it

 

[Hibbo]

I never got less than 48mpg from my Audi 1.9 TDi and that's quite a big car. On one memerable run to Luton I got a recorded 67mpg. That is considerably more than a Prius and I didn't feel like a complete berk driving it

Exactly what I'm on about Omni, and bear in mind that the A6 is a big car and that's a powerful engine (130BHP?).

Imagine a smaller less powerful version of that engine in a smaller car. (ie Polo or Lupo 1.4)

I have a mate who's got a 1.5l normally aspirated 106 diesel - that's and old fashioned engine (XUD7 I think) using old technology, nowhere near a modern diesel - and the worst he has had is 55MPG, and that's around town. He reckons he gets 70mpg on a good run.

The modern diesels with their ultra high injection pressures and extremely precise injection controls will easily give extremely impressive mpg figures with decent enough performance.

It's the way forward!

 

[big x]

Even with particulate traps diesels are highly damaging to health in cities.In the long term I would say conventional diesel has no future compared with green technology like hydrogen cells.
Diesel engines emit significant quantities of particulate matter.These fine particles penetrate deep into the lungs contributing to persistent human health problems such as asthma attacks, reduced lung function, lung disease and premature death. Fourteen of the 40 toxins in diesel exhaust are known to cause cancer and contribute to cardiopulmonary disease.Diesel engine exhaust contains a number of a potent carcinogens, elemental and organic carbon soot coated in gaseous organic substances such as formaldehyde and PAH ,a group of toxic gases that attach themselves to particles. Particles and nitrogen dioxide have chronic adverse effects on lung development in young children.Acute myeloid leukaemia (cancer of the bone marrow), is linked to benzene a component of conventional diesel exhaust.
Diesel engines also release other gases such as carbon monoxide and nitrogen oxides.

adam

 

[Hibbo]

Adam, I do not doubt your knowledge at all, I'd like to know more myself so could you point me towards a good resource?

Burning any fossil fuel releases all manner of crap, but how does what you have said stack up against a petrol engine? Are diesels really that bad in comparison?

 

[big x]

Adam, I do not doubt your knowledge at all, I'd like to know more myself so could you point me towards a good resource?

Burning any fossil fuel releases all manner of crap, but how does what you have said stack up against a petrol engine? Are diesels really that bad in comparison?

Your right burning anything (accept hydrogen) and breathing it in is bad news.If they had lived long enough cavemen would of died of cancer from sitting around wood fires !
There is some stuff here about the smaller diesel particulate size that causes problems http://www.abc.net.au/health/regions/features/diesel/

adam

 

[Silver Arrow]

Most of the ecological warriors don't do all the maths.
Burning hydrogen is good for the ecosystem, but where does the hydrogen come from? The energy derived from its recombination with oxygen is equal to the energy required to separate it in the first place. (More with inefficiency losses).
Similarly, the strategy of burning natural gas to produce electricity is cleaner than coal but having to go through the thermodynamic cycle reduced its potential heating energy reserves by about two thirds over piping it directly to homes and burning it there. Brilliant energy strategic planning by the Government.
There are only two ways of which I am aware to produce energy without using the thermodynamic cycle. Fuel cells and muscular power.
The optimum green policy is therefore to use animal drawn vehicles and treadmills in the prisons with galleys for our navy.
(Not sure about the increased flatulence caused by this policy, needs a multi-million pound research grant I'm sure)

 

[big x]

Most of the ecological warriors don't do all the maths.
Burning hydrogen is good for the ecosystem, but where does the hydrogen come from? The energy derived from its recombination with oxygen is equal to the energy required to separate it in the first place. (More with inefficiency losses).

Of course energy in and out are the same,the point is at the point of use pollution is less.
With a hybrid car doing stop start in a city the pollution is far less even if the overall environmental cost of the batteries is higher.With a hydrogen fuel cell the local output is of course water.

adam

 

[johnmc]

Hi,
The new article is pretty good at recognising that big engines of any kind are bad from the environment. It strengthens the arguments used by red Ken, even if his solutions are a little off target!

Hybrids only look good on paper for only one reason and that is the way that fuel ecomony is officially measured over a very short driving course from a cold start and the battery is working hard. If the measure was changed to reflect real driving styles and ranges they wouild have fuel economy and emissions just the same as any other car, probably worse due to the heavy batteries they lug around. But, we all respond to the way we are measured, right! Toyota's new Prius model, due in a couple of years has a headline mpg of 113mpg over the short measurement course, and can be re-charged by plugging into the mains. Any idea how to measure the efficiency of that? Kilowatt-hours consumed? MPG could be a meaningless and misleading number if plugging the car generates a mountain of CO2 somewhere else and consumes more electricity than your house.

The concern I have about hydrogen fuel cells is similar in that the general public, including me, are being oversold on how wonderful they will be. Yes, water is the primary emission but is that the full story? If you studied chemistry you know that we don't get something for nothing, and that's how this technology is being hyped. I reckon that the rub will be somewhere in the fuel supply chain, but I guess we'll find out soon enough.

I think diesel will hold the short term answer, the next generation about to appear looks amazing, another leap forward.

Never simple..!
John

 

[Hibbo]

Just echoing what's already been pointed out; hydrogen is NOT a source of energy, it is just clean way of storing and transfering that energy. The hydrogen has to be produced somehow, and where are we getting that energy from? Gas or coal fired power stations? Nuclear power stations (that's a different argument in it's own right!)? Hydrogen is next to useless until a true renewable energy SOURCE is developed.

 

[Parrot of Doom]

I'd take issue with the statement that co2 emissions are in any way harmful, so the whole argument is silly IMO.

 

[OmniCognateNeutronRangler]

In a "slightly off-topic" comment, but only slightly, i noted with some amusment an article on the front of our local paper (the petworth and Midhurst observer). The local metrological groups that provide information to the Met office have concluded that 2006 was the wettest year on record in West Sussex. Given that we still have a hose-pipe ban and the eco-loonies are saying how it was so dry because of global warming I find this report quite remarkable.

Odd how the national press (who like a good story) and the government are all telling us that we should coserve water and all have water meters fitted because of the "drought" caused by global warming when we can all see this is a lie by just looking out of the window, but the national press still keep reporting blatently untrue information.

Getting back to the issue about car polution, having owned a diesel and read a lot about the particulates issue I would be extremely unlikely to own another one. Apart from the noise (I know over 30 mph they sound the same but even nice new ones still sound like tractors when they start up and still chug out smoke everywhere) they very obviously polute massively. Don't think your safe in a diesel either. After 4x4's and then big petrol engines the government will turn on diesels.

 

[Hibbo]

I'd take issue with the statement that co2 emissions are in any way harmful, so the whole argument is silly IMO.

Are you being seroius Parrot?

 

[johnmc]

Hi,
I spotted a useful piece of info today. An E220CDi produces 125kw maximum power output, and the E320CDi 165kw. Basic small hatchbacks are about 45kw maximum, not much below that.

The boiler for my heating if turned to the maximum is 50kw, probably running it at around 30kw (hard to tell) and I probably use at least 10% more power for other stuff. That simple fact tells me that's there's no future for hybrid or electric cars, period. Think of how many more power stations we'd need if millions of cars driving around needed a peak electrical output of at least twice what a house uses to keep warm.

Hibbo's dead right, some new energy source, and mega big is needed..!

John

 

[wireman]

RE toxins in diesel exhaust
THEY ARE ALSO IN PETROL EXHAUST
RE Diesel particulates (PM10's)
PETROL HAS PM1's which are much smaller (less than 1 micron) and just as bad, you just cant see them even the best optical microscope has trouble fiding them.
RE hydrogen
HOW DO YOU MAKE IT? By mythical super clean zero energy magic or by using huge quantities of electricity?