m111 startup rattle

[Arzaam]

one last question did you also change the sprockets and rail guides along with tensioner or not or just the chain, is there a need to do those others things on m111 or cam sprockets issue is only on m271?

 

[Arudge]

one last question did you also change the sprockets and rail guides along with tensioner or not or just the chain, is there a need to do those others things on m111 or cam sprockets issue is only on m271?

The sprockets were in good condition and do not suffer like the M271, so i did not change them.

The guide rails also looked good, they require a lot more work to replace. The crank pulley needs to be removed and that requires special tools to lock the engine, then the bottom casings need to be removed, to much work, it wasn't worth it. If the guide rails had deep grooves in them then i would have changed them, but they were still smooth.

The tensioner on the M111 does not need to be replaced, it can be reset. The M111 tensioner is different to the M271. The M111 tensioner is far better.

All i replaced was the chain.

 

[LostKiwi]

The crank pulley needs to be removed and that requires special tools to lock the engine

Didn't fancy the Land Rover way? Long breaker bar and socket on the bolt, handle hard against the chassis rail and hit the starter....?

 

[Arudge]

Didn't fancy the Land Rover way? Long breaker bar and socket on the bolt, handle hard against the chassis rail and hit the starter....?

The crank bolt is up to some stupid torque plus 90 degrees....i had visions of bits of broken breaker bar launching themselves at me........but i would have been happier with an endless chain.

I just didn't fancy it....you know, i'm not exactly Mr Lucky....it was bound to end in disaster

 

[LostKiwi]

The crank bolt is up to some stupid torque plus 90 degrees....i had visions of bits of broken breaker bar launching themselves at me........but i would have been happier with an endless chain.

I just didn't fancy it....you know, i'm not exactly Mr Lucky....it was bound to end in disaster

When I did it on the Defender (with 300TDi engine) I had visions of the breaker bar launching its way through the chassis rail and everything else in its path... (it didn't though )

 

[Arzaam]

@Arudge if in the future I have too check my timing like you described where do I get the peg to insert in the slots? I can only order through Amazon USA if I want to online will this work as it has different sized pegs , as long as it goes through all 3 hole and is centred, does the exact side of the peg matter? https://www.amazon.com/STARRICH-Cam...9638&sr=1-23-spons&keywords=timing+pins&psc=1

 

[Arudge]

That item won't work for you as it's purpose made for other vehicles. You don't know what size it is or if it's long enough.

An ordinary 5mm bolt maybe 40mm long will do the job. It's just a location peg, a very simple 5mm peg.

I'll take a picture tomorrow of what i used. A 5mm cap screw.

 

[Arudge]

Just found this........thought it might be interesting for you.

realy realy sorry i never got back on this one,
just spotted it after years,,,,,,ok update am sure i can get my memory to place things in the right order,
this car has now got 210,000 miles and is running well,
lets get back to when i was getting a lot of top end rattle,
i was concerned that the engine could have been damaged so i got my man to drop the sump and replace the shell bearings,
there was a little bit of scoring but not to bad,
anyway went back out on the road ,it was still rattling its nuts of,
still rattling at the top end so thought i would look into getting a new set of hydraulic tappets,
before i did that i stuck a can or a bottle,cant remember which,,of hydraulic tappet cleaner in with the oil,
after about a week or 500 miles i got the impression it was quieting down,
i was right ,
another 500 miles and it was quieter still,
after its next oil change i gave it another tin then after its next oil change 12 weeks later i finished it off with another tin and all was good,
not as quiet as my previous 220 which had nearly 300,000 miles but acceptable,now a good chance it will do the 300,000 miles when i will be due to change it....hope this can help someone,
once again i dont think the car had a proper oil change since it came out of the factory,,,
,,thats main stealers for you some good some .........very very bad...

 

[Arzaam]

thank you so much again the above info is extremely helpful, very difficult to find guidance for m111.

 

[ajlsl600]

followers , get that not quite as bad on my clk after its been parked for three months ,thats why i prevent it from actually starting until oil light out . and why i have pre lube kit on 600, to prevent that ever happening. i hope .

 

[Arzaam]

Chains stretch as part of normal wear and tear. The link pins wear and the chain becomes sloppy, there's a lot of link pins and they don't have to wear much before the chain stretches. I think the chain is about 1.2M long and mine stretched about 7 or 8mm, which is a lot for a tensioner to take up.

As LK has pointed out, poor maintenance because the oil hasn't been changed will wear the chain, so will poor quality oil.

Fast driving or aggressive acceleration will not make any difference, poor quality oil will. Stay with the spec and change it on time.

Watch the video below. This is NOT THE CORRECT WAY to check the cam timing but it does show you were to put the pegs. Please ignore the counting and the paint marks, just see were the pegs go. You do not have to strip the engine down to do this, just take the cam cover off.

This is what you do. Set the crankshaft at 20 degrees ATDC (After Top Dead Centre) and put a 5mm peg into the INLET cam, make sure the peg goes through both holes in the cam cap AND into the cam wheel. If the peg does not go into the cam wheel, rotate the crank clockwise very, very slowly until the peg goes in, check the reading on the crankshaft pulley, it should be between 20 degrees and 30 degrees. If it's 20 degrees the chain is new, if it's 30 degrees the chain is worm out and should be replaced. Remove the peg from the inlet cam and place it into the EXHAUST cam. Again, if it doesn't go all the way into the exhaust cam pulley, rotate the crank very slowly until it does, check the reading on the crank, it should be no more than 35 degrees. Again, if the the crank pulley shows 35 degrees the chain should be replaced. But it would probably start rattling by then anyway.

When i changed my cam chain the peg went in the inlet cam wheel at 23 degrees and the exhaust was also 23 degrees. The engine ran very smooth.

hi, I was researching bit more on this and wanted to know how do you find TDC on a 4 stroke engine, is cylinder 1 required to be at TDC? , like you said to check at 20 degrees ATDC but would that be on the compression or exhaust stroke or how to differentiate between them thanks

 

[LostKiwi]

TDC is marked on the crank pulley.
To find it otherwise remove the cam covers and spark plugs. Put a scredriver into the sparkplug hole of number 1.
Turn the engine over and watch (on a 4 cylinder) number 4 valves. When the exhaust valves start to close watch the screwdriver in number 1 and once the screwdriver reaches its top most position thats TDC. The inlet valves should also be starting to open at this point.

20 degrees after TDC will be the power stroke and both valves on number 1 will be closed..

 

[Arzaam]

TDC is marked on the crank pulley.
To find it otherwise remove the cam covers and spark plugs. Put a scredriver into the sparkplug hole of number 1.
Turn the engine over and watch (on a 4 cylinder) number 4 valves. When the exhaust valves start to close watch the screwdriver in number 1 and once the screwdriver reaches its top most position thats TDC. The inlet valves should also be starting to open at this point.

20 degrees after TDC will be the power stroke and both valves on number 1 will be closed..

Thank you that makes it clear now

Just to be sure cylinder one is the one on the front of the engine and cylinder 4 is closest to the firewall ?

Will check timing just in case next month when I get back from UK even though mostly likely lifter sound since these years I had the car

Appreciate all the info thanks again

 

[Arzaam]

so I finally got round to checking timing just in case, many thanks to @Arudge @LostKiwi and others for guidance in this regard,


removed the valve cover set the crank to 20 degrees after TDC, it was marked on the pulley but I doubled verified it using a screwdriver in cylinder 1 and also noted that both cam lobes for intake and exhaust weren't pressing down

at 20degrees I pinned the intake cam, it was ever so slightly off, I was able to pin it through all 3 holes at 23 degrees after top dead centre, exhaust cam was still a little off so went slighty further and was able to pin the exhaust at 25 degrees after top dead centre, then used the MB special pinning tool and can pin both cams at 25degrees after TDC so thats a good result then? chain seemed like new within the range that WIS specifies, car has done little over 80k miles what do you think? attaching pictures shortly attaching pictures below

 

[Arzaam]

I stupidly forgot to take a picture of me pinning them but be sure that I made sure they went through all the way in the hole in the sprocket as well as Arudge had warned me before in his explanation

the sprokets teeth looked fine to me, what about you?





I couldn't see the rails below too much but from what I could see they seemed fine to me didn't see scoring from what I could see

I pinned them manually with a drill bit 5mm but also used this Mercedes pinning tool and can pin both camshafts fully at 25 degrees as below

 

[Arzaam]

so chain is fine then right? its likely the cam rockers or according to one thread on Benz world the variator sprocket needs to be just de burred, and this a was a issue they found on only two year old cars back then but had no long term effects, If the chain was bad I would get rattling on rev up and down which I don't have and timing seems perfect as verified above as well, the dealer has before time and again road tested the car at high speed and they never found it lacking power or flat spots or any misfire also starts on the dot every time no matter how long it stood, they had said if the chain seems fine to me I shouldn't bother with the other stuff it will have no long term effects and I should switch to thicker oil if I cam concerned too much, right now I am religiously using Mobil 1 0W-40. but I think it has helped keep the engine clean, do the camshaft etc look clean with little varnish or deposits?

sorry for the long post

 

[Arzaam]

btw I also used the existing valve cover and sprakplug seals even though I did buy new ones but I realized the spakrplug seals will need special tools to reseat and mine seemed fine and valve cover gasket also seemed well seated and fine.

 

[Arzaam]

this was what WIS said as was explained by the other members too if any one needs

 

[Arudge]

All looks good to me. I wouldn't do any further work. You've checked the timing correctly and I would say the chain is about half way through it's service life and there is no need to change it.

Also, there's a lot less tarnishing in yours suggesting it's had an easy life, just keep up with your regular maintenance.

 

[Arzaam]

All looks good to me. I wouldn't do any further work. You've checked the timing correctly and I would say the chain is about half way through it's service life and there is no need to change it.

Also, there's a lot less tarnishing in yours suggesting it's had an easy life, just keep up with your regular maintenance.

thanks so much again, your input really helped