Next C63 to use hybrid four-pot

[Conor]

Ok, 500 BHP makes it fairly potent, but anybody want join me in cheering for the future of performance motoring..?

YayyyyyyyBoooo!

Not necessarily looking to re-ignite my most contentious thread yet, but this falls in line with the remove of V12 from the lineup and the current "63" range being a 4.0 litre bi turbo.

Ok, the performance figures are still there but many will agree that it will be a sad day when the rough and tumble of a big ICE V8 is a thing of the past.

Copied from here.

Mercedes-AMG will send a clear message that it is adapting to modern demands with the upcoming third-generation C63 by forgoing its long-standing V8 power in favour of an advanced four-cylinder hybrid drivetrain that develops more than 500bhp.

The new C63 will be the first in a number of new AMG models earmarked to receive an electrified version of Mercedes’ new turbocharged 2.0-litre M139 engine when it goes on sale in early 2022.


The four-wheel-drive rival to the Audi RS4 and BMW M3 is already undergoing intensive development at AMG’s Affalterbach engineering headquarters. The first sighting of a camouflaged prototype shows off an evolutionary look in line with the recently facelifted E-Class, and suggests AMG will not tone down the saloon's aggressive styling as it downsizes the engine.

Read more here...

 

[bembo449]

same as F1 conor , ridiculous without a V8

 

[Rob7seven]

Small engines screaming away are no substitute for a larger, slightly lazier one with a bit of effortless oomph, and other things being equal, smaller harder working engines will wear out faster, without necessarily being much more economical or less polluting. The current C200 is about the same power as its predecessor, which had a 2 litre engine, but today's 1.6, while producing similar power to the he older engine, sounds and feels strained in comparison, and it's far too coarse and noisy when revved, I tried one, and didn't like it at all, really not appropriate in a car like a Mercedes. I wonder how refined the proposed tweaked 2 litre 4 cylinder will feel in the coming C63. Do you suppose MB will be honest enough to put the 63 on the boot lid in inverted commas?

 

[bembo449]

very true rob , the 3 pot ecoboost engine that Ford use is only a 1.0 with the power of a 1.6 and they regularly fail and I believe were only designed to last 70k miles anyway

 

[Blobcat]

Small engines screaming away are no substitute for a larger, slightly lazier one with a bit of effortless oomph, and other things being equal, smaller harder working engines will wear out faster, without necessarily being much more economical or less polluting. The current C200 is about the same power as its predecessor, which had a 2 litre engine, but today's 1.6, while producing similar power to the he older engine, sounds and feels strained in comparison, and it's far too coarse and noisy when revved, I tried one, and didn't like it at all, really not appropriate in a car like a Mercedes. I wonder how refined the proposed tweaked 2 litre 4 cylinder will feel in the coming C63. Do you suppose MB will be honest enough to put the 63 on the boot lid in inverted commas?

It’s why Audi have gone to 2 numbers on the boot to denote engine power rather than engine size. The numbers don’t appear to relate directly but the larger the number the more power

 

[Conor]

Small engines screaming away are no substitute for a larger, slightly lazier one with a bit of effortless oomph, and other things being equal, smaller harder working engines will wear out faster, without necessarily being much more economical or less polluting. The current C200 is about the same power as its predecessor, which had a 2 litre engine, but today's 1.6, while producing similar power to the he older engine, sounds and feels strained in comparison, and it's far too coarse and noisy when revved, I tried one, and didn't like it at all, really not appropriate in a car like a Mercedes. I wonder how refined the proposed tweaked 2 litre 4 cylinder will feel in the coming C63. Do you suppose MB will be honest enough to put the 63 on the boot lid in inverted commas?

Yes, couldn't agree more with this. I remember watching the Chief Engineer at Bugatti saying their block was solid as a rock and can churn out their power numbers all day. He followed up saying a lot of smaller engines could put out the big numbers but they would simply blow up after a while..

I really really enjoy my V6 350 and it pains me to see the new 350e with it's small engine.

It’s why Audi have gone to 2 numbers on the boot to denote engine power rather than engine size. The numbers don’t appear to relate directly but the larger the number the more power

Oh yes, I keep a lookup table in my glove box.. the ranges are weird. I've yet to see "70" denoted on a car, because the high end performance models usually omit those kinds of things anyway.

The added complexity of hybrid power trains too.. I also feel like consumer are being lulled into a false sense of security when it comes to EVs. There is an argument I see put forward many times about their being no engine and less moving parts.

Down the road we will see OEMs introduce service schedules for the modern equivalent of motor rewinds, brush replacement etc.. (Brushless I know, but you get the point). Jury out on battery cells also.. can't simply open one of them up.

I suppose in admission the mass market needs it as global warming is real.

 

[Rob7seven]

The added complexity of hybrid power trains too.. I also feel like consumer are being lulled into a false sense of security when it comes to EVs. There is an argument I see put forward many times about their being no engine and less moving parts.

Down the road we will see OEMs introduce service schedules for the modern equivalent of motor rewinds, brush replacement etc.. (Brushless I know, but you get the point). Jury out on battery cells also.. can't simply open one of them up.

I suppose in admission the mass market needs it as global warming is real.

I'm currently on my fourth Mercedes. My second was a C250 Coupé, and while it was a lovely thing to drive, it was quite troublesome, major warranty repairs including a new cylinder head & much of the fuel system, plus four new AMG alloys. While my car was spending 10 days in the workshop for the engine problem, they noticed corrosion starting on all the wheels, on a 6000 mile 18 month old car which had never been out on salted roads. Two dealers, one my local one and one in Germany, handled everything brilliantly, but I don't think Mercedes made much profit from me in the end. The car also suffered comprehensive electronic problems, another week away being worked on, which made me nervous, so it went a couple of weeks before the warranty expired, though I did buy another Mercedes. Electronics are one of the commonest problem areas in modern cars, sometimes never really cured, ask almost anyone with a 1.5 litre VW. So am I ever likely to put my trust in an electric vehicle, where the whole thing is designed around complicated electronics?

Things like Teslas have a poor and worsening reputation for build quality and after sales care, so I won't be joining the Guardian readers and Greta Thunberg followers and buying one of those.

Can this be made easier to read? By mistake (I'm new here!) I've done it so that my response to Conor only shows up if you click on it

 

[Blobcat]

I'm currently on my fourth Mercedes. My second was a C250 Coupé, and while it was a lovely thing to drive, it was quite troublesome, major warranty repairs including a new cylinder head & much of the fuel system, plus four new AMG alloys. While my car was spending 10 days in the workshop for the engine problem, they noticed corrosion starting on all the wheels, on a 6000 mile 18 month old car which had never been out on salted roads. Two dealers, one my local one and one in Germany, handled everything brilliantly, but I don't think Mercedes made much profit from me in the end. The car also suffered comprehensive electronic problems, another week away being worked on, which made me nervous, so it went a couple of weeks before the warranty expired, though I did buy another Mercedes. Electronics are one of the commonest problem areas in modern cars, sometimes never really cured, ask almost anyone with a 1.5 litre VW. So am I ever likely to put my trust in an electric vehicle, where the whole thing is designed around complicated electronics?

Things like Teslas have a poor and worsening reputation for build quality and after sales care, so I won't be joining the Guardian readers and Greta Thunberg followers and buying one of those.

Can this be made easier to read? By mistake (I'm new here!) I've done it so that my response to Conor only shows up if you click on it

You’d deleted the “]” from the end of the “quote” from Conor therefore your reply ended up inside the quote.
I’ve added it back in for you

 

[Conor]

very true rob , the 3 pot ecoboost engine that Ford use is only a 1.0 with the power of a 1.6 and they regularly fail and I believe were only designed to last 70k miles anyway

How do you know they were designed to last only 70k miles?

It will be very interesting to see how Tesla fairs in the long term. I fear that they will have insane amounts of planned obsolescence in there.

Look at what John Deere have done with agri equipment..will be interesting where all of this "right to repair" stuff goes.

Oh and also.... Teslas don't even have OBDII ports. They are "exempt" I have been told. Ok, somewhat understandable as OBDII and associated codes are largely for ICE cars.

If they are going to start making the new age of cars exempt.. they need to create a new open standard for troubleshooting IMHO.

 

[V6Matty]

How do you know they were designed to last only 70k miles?

It will be very interesting to see how Tesla fairs in the long term. I fear that they will have insane amounts of planned obsolescence in there.

Look at what John Deere have done with agri equipment..will be interesting where all of this "right to repair" stuff goes.

Oh and also.... Teslas don't even have OBDII ports. They are "exempt" I have been told. Ok, somewhat understandable as OBDII and associated codes are largely for ICE cars.

If they are going to start making the new age of cars exempt.. they need to create a new open standard for troubleshooting IMHO.

Not sure what you mean with the John Deere quote?

re not needing an ODB port, correct as all the information is accessible through the big iPad in the centre, in there is engineering modes and I would guess revolving access codes for Tesla to access as needed

 

[John Laidlaw]

You could argue Evs have less complications mechanically.
Having just had 2 years (trouble free almost) in a hybrid I can certainly say the electric drive was by far the smoothest driving I’ve ever experienced. Getting back into an ICE seems somehow a backwards step...
SWMBO is insistent the XC90 will be replaced by a Nissan Leaf ( new) and given her driving profile (3k a year round the houses ) it’s hard to argue...

 

[JBell]

SWMBO is insistent the XC90 will be replaced by a Nissan Leaf ( new) and given her driving profile (3k a year round the houses ) it’s hard to argue...

Probably a bang on car for that useage or a Prius (if you can handle the looks)

 

[Conor]

You could argue Evs have less complications mechanically.
Having just had 2 years (trouble free almost) in a hybrid I can certainly say the electric drive was by far the smoothest driving I’ve ever experienced. Getting back into an ICE seems somehow a backwards step...
SWMBO is insistent the XC90 will be replaced by a Nissan Leaf ( new) and given her driving profile (3k a year round the houses ) it’s hard to argue...

Yea that's a fair enough argument. I guess with the new breed of electrics will come a new wave of innovation that should make these cars as enjoyable.

Milltek even has that fancy new exhaust system for electrics.. as used in the Tesla:

EDIT: Looks like this forum software strips out the timestamp part of link. Skip to 15:15 or click here.

Not sure what you mean with the John Deere quote?

Hey Matty, there is currently uproar in the US with John Deere locking out farmers from fixing their machines. For me it is a glimpse of what could come down the road for EVs if things aren't curtailed.

Hackers are reverse engineering the electronics to help out farmers and I believe JD go after said hackers..

https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere-farmers-right-to-repair/

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...aska-farmers-right-to-repair-john-deere-apple

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...deere-over-who-gets-to-fix-an-800-000-tractor

 

[V6Matty]

Yea that's a fair enough argument. I guess with the new breed of electrics will come a new wave of innovation that should make these cars as enjoyable.

Milltek even has that fancy new exhaust system for electrics.. as used in the Tesla:

EDIT: Looks like this forum software strips out the timestamp part of link. Skip to 15:15 or click here.

Hey Matty, there is currently uproar in the US with John Deere locking out farmers from fixing their machines. For me it is a glimpse of what could come down the road for EVs if things aren't curtailed.

Hackers are reverse engineering the electronics to help out farmers and I believe JD go after said hackers..

https://www.wired.com/story/john-deere-farmers-right-to-repair/

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...aska-farmers-right-to-repair-john-deere-apple

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...deere-over-who-gets-to-fix-an-800-000-tractor

Ah, nothing new there actually, what they’re doing is blocking the from bypassing systems and introducing potential dangerous “field engineering”, technically it’s been done on cars for years with dealer level software and bespoke programming designs

 

[Conor]

Ah, nothing new there actually, what they’re doing is blocking the from bypassing systems and introducing potential dangerous “field engineering”, technically it’s been done on cars for years with dealer level software and bespoke programming designs

Ok fair argument but at least indies get the "dealer" level functionality. I think that's the main argument above. The dealer / JD don't let anybody else in to the system.

 

[V6Matty]

Ok fair argument but at least indies get the "dealer" level functionality. I think that's the main argument above. The dealer / JD don't let anybody else in to the system.

They do but you have to buy the kit and license it, just like STAR, last I remember reading a single license for STAR is in the region of £12k plus an annual access charge

 

[Conor]

They do but you have to buy the kit and license it, just like STAR, last I remember reading a single license for STAR is in the region of £12k plus an annual access charge

One off purchase of 12k as capex isn't toooooo bad and a couple of k annual maintenance, imho.

The argument with potentials like Tesla and John Deere is they don't offer anything to Indies. Absolutely not good for consumers, I mean, they'll need new brake discs+pads+lines every service....

 

[V6Matty]

One off purchase of 12k as capex isn't toooooo bad and a couple of k annual maintenance, imho.

The argument with potentials like Tesla and John Deere is they don't offer anything to Indies. Absolutely not good for consumers, I mean, they'll need new brake discs+pads+lines every service....

Quite a bit more than a couple of £k I believe, and remember that’s per unit not a one off cost, also remember that that outlay for an Indy is huge (until you are established) that’s a new lift or an experienced mechanic for a good number of months. Also look at volumes of cars vs agri equipment plus physically transporting things around and size of the space needed to do any work on them.
I’m pretty sure Tesla will allow independents to access their systems but they will have to go through full training and qualifications (I would expect about a month long coarse) then lease all their equipment, by which point most indys will just say they aren’t allowing them to be worked on outside the network because it’s too many hoops to jump through to get accreditation. Apple have been doing it for years to become one of their approved repair centres, their training coarse along is in the region of £6k per person plus all the network equipment (about £80k worth when we bought it 7 years ago so may be cheaper now),

 

[JBell]

SWMBO is insistent the XC90 will be replaced by a Nissan Leaf ( new) and given her driving profile (3k a year round the houses ) it’s hard to argue...

A friend has just got his wife one of these in Premium SE spec (Loaded with the bigger battery), her driving profile is the same, she loves it, got a red one

https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/kona-electric

 

[John Laidlaw]

A friend has just got his wife one of these, her driving profile is the same, she loves it, got a red one

https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/kona-electric

I was looking at those as well Jon, I preferred it but SWMBO seems determined on the leaf- quite surprising as she has no interest in cars normally- additionally surprising is she declared the current tourer as the best car I've ever had ....no accounting for taste (E63, SL500...i8- she didn't know me when I had the 840ci or many others so I can forgive that...)