Nightmare

MarkCL

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Need a bit of a vent - was on holiday all last week in Cumbria. Beautiful place, absolutely stunning scenery and some lovely roads. All was going very well in fact...till some complete chimp decided to have a brain f@rt moment and drove in to the back of me :(

Basically I'd stopped as the guy in front of me had stopped to turn in to a car park but the idiot in the estate car behind just ploughed straight in to the back of me and pushed me on to the car in front :evil: Police at the scene are going to prosecute the guy for driving without due care and attention but that doesn't really help me much.

Now I imagine there are at least a few of you on here who know just how well I look after my car so you'll understand that I'm absolutely fuming that I now face the very likely probability of my car being written off :mad: :cry: Really not sure what to do now to be honest. I'll fight them to try and get it repaired but if I have to settle then I really don't know what to do. I don't want another C43 that I then have to bring up to the standard that mine was, the C32 doesn't interest me really and I can't quite stretch to a C55 yet. That was going to be my next car as and when I'd squirrelled a bit more money away :(

Just annoys me that I'm coming off worse out of this despite it not being my fault! The other two cars only have one end's worth of damage to deal with, mine has front and back stoved in...bl00dy typical :evil:

Off to await the engineer's report now and expect the worst :(

Cheers,
Mark
 

st4

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Sorry to hear this. I saw your car @ Ollies and is a lovely looked after motor. I'd look around for a replacement 43 from a forum member if you are after a 202. The C55 is nice but a 211 500 or 55 would be a better bet and more value for money.
 

jberks

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Nightmare is right. Really sorry to hear it. Hopefully the ins co will realise that the C43 is a classic, not just an ordinary car.
On the plus side, provided the damage is primarily cosmetic (no jigs required) then you should eb able to put it back together under a CAT D. Not ideal I know, but a well trodden route for most of us. You may even be able to agree with the ins co to keep it off the cat d register so don't lose heart yet. You may even come out a few quid ahead (may help bring the C55 forward!!)
 

Alex M Grieve

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Write Off Value

Hi Mark,

Firstly, I am very sorry to hear of your plight. The guy behind is always a worry as there is not much you can do to protect yourself, and you do have to stop when the chap ahead stops.

I am perplexed by the "market value" that insurers offer in the event of a write off. It is said to be what they think the car would fetch if sold on the market, but it is worth remembering that it is probably a trade in price we are offered. Firstly, you would not have traded that car in. Secondly you would not have traded it in for their "market value". And thirdly, how can you possibly replace like for like, buying for the "market value" that has been set?

Perhaps the insurers could compensate fairly, not by saying "that figure should be enough to replace your car", but being required to procure the replacement car and provide it to you?

I don't know if anyone has ever tried this logic? I am sure they would say "that is not what we do", and if questioned further, the answer would be a repetition of that phrase until you got tired and went away!

We will all be waiting with interest to hear how you get on. Good luck.
 

Seeker_UK

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Sorry to hear about this - I know how gutted I felt with a 'minor' bump on he side of my car.

Let us know what the engineers say - fingers crossed they'll pay out.
 

Chrishazle

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Honest John

I have a bug in the back of my memory saying I've seen letters of your type of problem in Honest John in the Torygraph - and IIRC his comments were that it is up to chimp's insurers to return you to the conditions prevailing before chimp hit you - irrespective of the cost of repairs.

Don't quote me, 'cos with advancing age, the second thing that goes is the memory (now why can't I remember what the first is??)

Try a search on www.honestjohn.co.uk or try emailing him - and good luck, I know how gutted I'd feel if some moron did that to one of my cars, especially the Porsche!

Chris
 

robertjrt

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I have just come home from seeing my solicitor and was on a London bendy-bus when a ML320 was swiped, oh dear, the owner is not going to be happy when he begins to deal with the bus company who are past masters dealing with bus accidents.

At least it sounds as if the other cars in your accident were insured but, now you enter the world of the insurance assessor.

Having been a driving Instructor where rear end collisions are all to frequent
one become used to dealing with Insurance companies.

I found that junior members of staff "read from a script" and are therefor to be avoided at all costs as short conversations can become "we agreed" on XYZ. Knock for Knock is another favourite, again to be avoided. I used to deal with the assessor "reasonably" but, firmly.

I would find out first what it would cost to bring your car back to its original condition then you will be able to work out the best option for you, nobody else, you.

The question of the damage to the car you hit will need some research as the rule of thumb is; rear end collisions are the fault of the vehicle hitting it.

If all the damage caused is the result of a third party there is a reasonable argument that all the damage caused is the responsibility of the driver who caused the original accident, through negligence, driving without due care and attention.

I always rejected the first offer which invariably was "fill and paint" rather than a replacement panel, its what insurance companies do, the same as the value, what it is worth, not replacement value and who values what it is worth?
 

simon_wall69

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If you have pictures and evidence of work done then the insurance company will take this into account.

My car was written off last year, the assessor phoned up to offer the £1,000 I had insured it for but said he could alter this if I had any evidence of the car being worth more such as receipts for work done or photos. I had none, and would have valued the car lower anyway. It had done a lot of miles (it had had its original clocks changed at 376,000 miles and displayed 180,000 iirc) and the body work was quite scratched and stained to buggery down the wing with veg oil spillage.

I also got a top of the range, brand new Discovery for three weeks whilst the check was being done as I was given a car with a similar engine (3 litre diesel).
 

stuartmac

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Hi Alex,

I am perplexed by the "market value" that insurers offer in the event of a write off.
;) And a lot of insurance company staff would say they are perplexed by the number of otherwise intelligent adults who, every year, shell out hundreds or even thousands of pounds, sign a binding legal contract but don't bother to understand its terms.

It is said to be what they think the car would fetch if sold on the market,
Nope.

1. If the rear-ending driver's insurers write off Mark's car, legally, he's entitled to the cost of buying a similar (in every sense of the word) vehicle. It's an entirely separate issue that the other driver's insurers will almost certainly try to palm Mark off with the 'book value' of a 1999 C43; it's up to Mark to decide whether to accept the offer or fight for more; however, then it'll be up to Mark to demonstrate why he should be paid more.

2. Mark should never lose sight of the fact that, legally, his argument is with the rear-ending driver, not with either insurer. If the rear-ending driver's insurer won't cough up enough, ultimately Mark can sue the rear-ending driver.

3. 'Writing-off' is a separate matter. It is an economic decision by those assuming the responsibility for restituting Mark (the rear-ending driver's insurers) when the cost of repairing Mark's car (at current prices) exceeds a notional 'value' of a 1999 C43.

it is worth remembering that it is probably a trade in price we are offered.
How so? Your are mixing up legal entitlements and obligations with what some insurance companies try to get away with. Unless Mark is a motor trader, any 'trade-in price' would not compensate him for his loss so it does not satisfy the rear-ending driver's legal obligation to Mark.

Perhaps the insurers could compensate fairly,
Define 'fairly'. Insurers do not deal with exceptional 1999 C43's every day. They deal with average Fords and Vauxhalls and Peugeots and VW's and yadda yadda every day, so their standard compensation arrangements is they shell out an amount of money, usually in the form of a cheque, that allows whoever to buy another Ford or Vauxhall or Peugeot or VW or yadda yadda. If Mark wants additional compensation for his time and trouble finding another 1999 C43, it's up to him to make a case for it.

but being required to procure the replacement car and provide it to you?
And how much more would you like to pay for your insurance so that each company can pay an expert on 1999 C43's, on the off-chance that one of their insureds will run into the back of one? ;)

While it's too late for Mark, I would point out that, for others that have high-standard 'old' cars, there is another insurance that would save a lot of the grief Mark will probably go through. That's 'Agreed Value'. Yes, you will pay more, but you're asking an insurance company to take a higher risk; however, if you're involved in an accident where the third party's insurers are picking up the bill, they're unlikely to argue with the evidence your insurer will have collected to assess the risk in the first place.

Hth.

Regards,
 

D1gger5

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Spent 30 minutes on phone to my insurer's tonight after my carnage (18th June). The assessor will now contact me to check cars over. They may be able to go from their "classic" car guide and not "Glass's" or whatever. It's cut and dried as the motorcyclist has admitted liability (parked cars do not move unless forced).

Have to wait and see now but as always they will offer peanuts for both 22+ year old cars and I'll have to fight them for every penny.

I may be able to buy them back or rob the good parts before they get crushed.

I hate insurer's as they are quick enough in taking your money but treat you with condescention over what the car is worth to you. £1k+ in parts but £50 scrap value.
 

Alex M Grieve

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Hi Alex,

That's 'Agreed Value'. Yes, you will pay more, but you're asking an insurance company to take a higher risk; however, if you're involved in an accident where the third party's insurers are picking up the bill, they're unlikely to argue with the evidence your insurer will have collected to assess the risk in the first place.

Hi Stuart,

I would not quibble for a moment with the technical accuracy of the detailed comments you have made - indeed, it is good to see them lined up to methodically.

Sadly, I suspect the assumptions and generalizations I have made probably reflect what happens for real.

Whilst you are correct that Mark does not have to deal with the villains insurers, it all gets a bit sticky when "If the rear-ending driver's insurer won't cough up enough, ultimately Mark can sue the rear-ending driver". In principle that is absolutely spot on - but how often does it happen successfully? We would then need recourse to "an expert on 1999 C43's" such as no individual insurer would retain, bearing in mind that Mark is "entitled to the cost of buying a similar (in every sense of the word) vehicle".

I agree the principle, but this is beginning to piece together a civil action, an expert witness, the inertia of the legal system, an opposing team who will argue that the insurers offer was reasonable (a word that has 2 meanings, depending on which side you represent). At some point I can foresee Mark being advised against such a route in that the costs will comfortably exceed the write-off value of the car.

It could be a real campaign, and I fully sympathize with the innocent party, but how do you suggest he gets "justice" in a real world which is awash with motor collisions. Everyone involved feels that they were in the right. Everyone involved feels that their car is special and that others do not recognize that or understand. And an insurance industry that has seen it all before and just wants to close the case at least cost.

I guess the OP was close to the mark with the title of the thread - "Nightmare".
 

television

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Many insures have a tit for tat agreement, and your own insurance company will fight it for you. It is ad when this happens,but it does all of the time.

There are many different approaches, but its early days to speculate, and we must wait for the assessor to give his verdict
 

Xtractorfan

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Digger the Insurance company will not want your ''old ''damged cars, they will be only too happy to sell them back to you, you need to speak to the assessor and agree with him his value of the cars.. his opinion will count.. but a lot of them are smart asses who try and benefit their own points system..like how much they have saved the insurance company..

As for mark and his C43.. Know any car sales guys, get a vauation of your car from a couple of garages, this is how much that you were offerd for the vehicle, this is the price the insurance company woud have to pay you, their first offer will be laughable,,,as for the damage to the car in front, the insurance company will ask the guy in front how many times his car was hit, if once then the behind driver is at fault, if the front car was hit twice ..once by you then by the other car hitting you into him again then you will be liable for his damage.. so be extra nice to the guy you rear ended
 

toby_tobias

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I sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but if you have paid for extra legal cover will this not seek to reclaim any difference in what you received and what you are really owed?

I was on the other end of this when my wife was hit by another driver, who's insurance company paid up but then the at faults driver's legal cover firm tried to recover her lost excess from us, bizarely our insurers didn't want to contest this and paid up, without loss to us but I was still cross that they paid up at all ! they argued it was cheaper to pay the £250 pounds than contest it, stupid or what?
 

Seeker_UK

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This is one of the occasions where you find out how good your insurance really is.

It is very unpleasant way to learn that if you have a classic car and you want to reflect its true value, you need to insure it on a classic policy with an agreed value. However, classic policies have limited mileages (usually <5000K pa) so you use a regular insurer who treat your baby as any other 10 year old car. To the insurance company, "like for like" means same model and year. No more, no less. Modifications, mileage, condition seem to have no effect on their replacement value.

And they use CAP and as you know CAP will always be less than what you might have to pay at a garage. This is why Gap Insurance is available.

If you are not at fault, you can, through the insurance company, take action to reclaim from the person at fault any excess you have to pay. However, this has nothing to do with having legal protection.

If the car is deemed beyond economical repair (ie written off), some insurers will let you buy the car. Some may not though, this is so thay can be sure that any money you are given is spent on a replacement car, not on getting the damaged car cheap, repairing the car on a budget and trousering the change. There is nothing stopping you from finding out where the car has been scrapped to and trying to buy it from that scrappy.
 
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Hertfordshire Merx

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****** insurance companies are a legal rip off, pay if you have an accident, pay if you dont!

I had a female driver hit the back of my car a few years ago, totally her fault, she admitted it - caused £700 of damage to my car. Straight forward claim. My car was repaired and on insurance renewal, it went up £22 because I was nvolved in an accident even though I was non fault!
 

D1gger5

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My update - my insurers have sloped shoulders to the liable insurers. Their loss assessor will inspect the cars in the morning. Does this mean that my insurer's are not interested in the claim or not? Mind you the person at my insurers was surprised that I paid for "non-runners" and have ressurected them.

Supposedly this is because it is easier, quicker and is not a mark on my insurance as they pay me and then claim off the insurer of the motorcyclist who hit my parked cars.

Will see what happens to my insurance upon renewal in September.

Diggers
 

turbopete

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i see a plan for anyone with old run of the mill models, although this wont help Mark much. any car over 10 yrs old, for insurance pay outs, must be worth at least £2grand! how? find a couple of dealers you know, get 'prices' to trade your old car in, then when insurance says "its only worth £200 mate" you have documented proof otherwise!

and who said this scrappage scheme was a bad idea??
 

Seeker_UK

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i see a plan for anyone with old run of the mill models, although this wont help Mark much. any car over 10 yrs old, for insurance pay outs, must be worth at least £2grand! how? find a couple of dealers you know, get 'prices' to trade your old car in, then when insurance says "its only worth £200 mate" you have documented proof otherwise!

and who said this scrappage scheme was a bad idea??

But given the insurers are paying out for a replacement, a £200 car will only cost £200 to replace not £2K.
 

D1gger5

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Seeker - your logic is correct but, for example, my £200 non-runner, non taxed and non-MOT'd car that has been bought like that then ressurected by welding, mechanical replacement and legalising is still only worth what I paid for it? You try and find a legal car for less than £800, where? You try and find something like Mark's for what the insurer's may offer if it is financially uneconomic to repair?

Mark's case is slightly different but it it still a rare (not run of the mill) car and therefore does not fully match their guides (as always the insurer's always win). OK may famous response to the "How much is it worth?" question is "A piece of string" as this is always open to interpretation.

A car is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it but if you are not selling but valuing it for repair/replacement purposes them market value must be exactly that
and if the market is down/up on what you paid for it then that is the way it is. I did not want my (owned for 4 and 7 years) cars totalled but $h!t happenz (sic) and I have to replace/repair them with an unknown vehicle. This(These) unknown replacement vehicle(s) may need twice the amount of work to get to the same state as the one(s) totalled.

Had to take more time off work to see the loss assessor this morning (screws up the holiday time plan). I'll wait for his joke sheet to arrive later this/next week.

Diggers
 


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