Oil Change Whimsy

[EDX]

An odd thought occurred to me the other day.-

Everyone knows that overdue oil changes are bad news for the engine.
But what if you change the oil very frequently, say every 500 miles, would that harm the engine?
No I don't intend to do it myself, I'm not made of money!

Any thoughts?

 

[television]

It has been asked before and it was suggested that this would not be a good thing to do, but there would certainly be no point in it

 

[antijam]

Go to this site http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html and scroll down to the heading "So how often should I change my oil"

The only caveat I would suggest is don't change your filter more often than the manufacturers interval. A specialist from a major filter manufacturer once told me that the biggest single source of severely damaging contaminants (eg abrasive grit) in a car engine was the inadvertant introduction of muck during a filter change. Many garages are not exactly clinically clean and if you are doing it yourself over a dusty concrete floor or outdoors on a windy day - well............

 

[whitenemesis]

Thankfully my MB dealership is clinically clean. I would happily eat my dinner from the workshop floor!

 

[oigle]

Go to this site http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html and scroll down to the heading "So how often should I change my oil"

The only caveat I would suggest is don't change your filter more often than the manufacturers interval. A specialist from a major filter manufacturer once told me that the biggest single source of severely damaging contaminants (eg abrasive grit) in a car engine was the inadvertant introduction of muck during a filter change. Many garages are not exactly clinically clean and if you are doing it yourself over a dusty concrete floor or outdoors on a windy day - well............

Totally agree. Filters are one of the income producers for manufacturers and regular changes are just another income stream for them.
Another point is that it takes some time for an empty (new) filter to be filled when starting an engine and that extends the prime time for engine wear. It is common knowledge that most wear occurs on startup.
Thirdly, I relate my learnings when I was employed by the Shell Oil Company many years ago. When Shell X100 (world's first dispersant/detergent oil to hold contaminants in suspension) was first released back in the late
'50s/early '60s, a test was run by the oil company using a number of taxis in Sydney. They used Ford Falcon sedans (6cyl petrol). The test was run over one year. They were filled with the new X100 oil and was changed under supervision every 6000 miles, which was the reccommended period by Ford - at that time most manufacturers reccommended much more frequent changes. The other stipulation was that the oil filter was not to be changed for the year. The cars averaged 80,000 miles in the year. At the end of the period, the motors were stripped and examined for wear (none was found of any consequence), and crucially, the oil filters were disassembled (they were screw on canister type) and microscopically examined in a lab. They were found to be still perfectly serviceable and only about 1/3rd of their way through their capacity to hold contaminants.
I have always remembered this and have acted accordingly since. I change my Toyota car's filters at 40000km (reccommended every 10000km) and know I am still well within the useful parameters of the filters. Perhaps if I was to use the vehicle in extreme conditions of heavy dust etc., I may have chosen to change them earlier. I believe I have saved engine wear and money by adopting this procedure. With the diesel Benz, I change it more often as I have chipped the motor and the level of soot in the oil is higher as a result. It also cops a harder life as a caravan tow vehicle in sometimes arduous conditions. I'm sure I am erring on the super cautious side there. I do fill the filter bowl with fresh oil when I change it though, to minimise the period without oil pressure after startup.

 

[whitenemesis]

Totally agree. Filters are one of the income producers for manufacturers and regular changes are just another income stream for them.
Another point is that it takes some time for an empty (new) filter to be filled when starting an engine and that extends the prime time for engine wear. It is common knowledge that most wear occurs on startup.
Thirdly, I relate my learnings when I was employed by the Shell Oil Company many years ago. When Shell X100 (world's first dispersant/detergent oil to hold contaminants in suspension) was first released back in the late
'50s/early '60s, a test was run by the oil company using a number of taxis in Sydney. They used Ford Falcon sedans (6cyl petrol). The test was run over one year. They were filled with the new X100 oil and was changed under supervision every 6000 miles, which was the reccommended period by Ford - at that time most manufacturers reccommended much more frequent changes. The other stipulation was that the oil filter was not to be changed for the year. The cars averaged 80,000 miles in the year. At the end of the period, the motors were stripped and examined for wear (none was found of any consequence), and crucially, the oil filters were disassembled (they were screw on canister type) and microscopically examined in a lab. They were found to be still perfectly serviceable and only about 1/3rd of their way through their capacity to hold contaminants.
I have always remembered this and have acted accordingly since. I change my Toyota car's filters at 40000km (reccommended every 10000km) and know I am still well within the useful parameters of the filters. Perhaps if I was to use the vehicle in extreme conditions of heavy dust etc., I may have chosen to change them earlier. I believe I have saved engine wear and money by adopting this procedure. With the diesel Benz, I change it more often as I have chipped the motor and the level of soot in the oil is higher as a result. It also cops a harder life as a caravan tow vehicle in sometimes arduous conditions. I'm sure I am erring on the super cautious side there. I do fill the filter bowl with fresh oil when I change it though, to minimise the period without oil pressure after startup.

When I did my own services I always pre-filled the filter before fitting

 

[television]

On the 113 and may be others, when the engine is turned off the crankshaft damper is sprung loaded, and it rotates to blank off the oil ways in the crankshaft. the oil way to the upper part and timing chain is blanked off by a ball, to retain the oil in the oil ways, so little chance of any damage on that one when changing the oil

 

[whitenemesis]

Wow! Malcolm that's deep.

I'm afraid I may have consumed one or two too many shots of Russia's finest to be able to contribute constructively to this thread

 

[television]

Wow! Malcolm that's deep.

I'm afraid I may have consumed one or two too many shots of Russia's finest to be able to contribute constructively to this thread

I have an on CD that I picked up from Germany, it has loads of technical info of this nature, I will try and post a few things from it, sadly there is no index, just 900 descriptions of MB innovations

 

[oigle]

On the 113 and may be others, when the engine is turned off the crankshaft damper is sprung loaded, and it rotates to blank off the oil ways in the crankshaft. the oil way to the upper part and timing chain is blanked off by a ball, to retain the oil in the oil ways, so little chance of any damage on that one when changing the oil

That is a nice handy safety measure for the upper cylinder area in that engine. Wonder how many engines have such a feature. Keeps some oil there but an empty filter still delays oil pressure and flow occuring for an extended period, which could have some negative effects. I know many canister type oil filters have non return valves to prevent the filters from emptying when pressure is gone, and thus having to refill on every start. This would seem to indicate that it is an area of concern to the engineers. Have never seen any test results on such phenomena. If rattling timing chains are any guide, then damage could be occuring when running without pressure.

 

[television]

That is a nice handy safety measure for the upper cylinder area in that engine. Wonder how many engines have such a feature. Keeps some oil there but an empty filter still delays oil pressure and flow occuring for an extended period, which could have some negative effects. I know many canister type oil filters have non return valves to prevent the filters from emptying when pressure is gone, and thus having to refill on every start. This would seem to indicate that it is an area of concern to the engineers. Have never seen any test results on such phenomena. If rattling timing chains are any guide, then damage could be occuring when running without pressure.

On some engines there is a ball to keep the timing chain adjuster under pressure when stationery.

I was thinking last night in bed that some of these things are OK but in the event of low oil pressure then this would not overcome the pressure of the valve to open it, but one could say that if this was the case that would it really matter at that stage.

 

[Quick Silver]

When doing an oil & filter change I always crank the engine over with the plug leads disconnected till the oil pressure is up (puts out the light or shows a good reading if you have a pressure gauge .)

 

[Rory]

But what if you change the oil very frequently, say every 500 miles, would that harm the engine?

If you look at the oil analysis threads on US forums they tend to show engine wear (based on the stuff they find in the oil) increases with new oil, then levels off, then starts to increase again. They use this information to find the optimum oil change points for their cars.

 

[Razoo]

On the 113 and may be others, when the engine is turned off the crankshaft damper is sprung loaded, and it rotates to blank off the oil ways in the crankshaft. the oil way to the upper part and timing chain is blanked off by a ball, to retain the oil in the oil ways, so little chance of any damage on that one when changing the oil

I guess as a proportion of the engine's total oil capacity, the retained oil volume is quite small. However, the retained oil obviously will not get 'drained and changed' during an engine oil change. Rather simlar to a Mercedes transmission oil change, in fact.

When I used to do my own oil changes, I usually pre-filled the oil filter and often cranked the engine over with the plugs out until the oil pressure light extinguished (the latter procedure not being too practicable on my current E320 CDi)

Razoo

 

[television]

I guess as a proportion of the engine's total oil capacity, the retained oil volume is quite small. However, the retained oil obviously will not get 'drained and changed' during an engine oil change. Rather simlar to a Mercedes transmission oil change, in fact.

When I used to do my own oil changes, I usually pre-filled the oil filter and often cranked the engine over with the plugs out until the oil pressure light extinguished (the latter procedure not being too practicable on my current E320 CDi)

Razoo

A good point Razoo, but as you say, very little oil retained, I would say on average about ½ liter.

Cranking the engine would not help here as oil is retained after the pump, and there would be no pressure to push the remaining old oil out. Draining when really hot is the best way as the oil is very thin and the bearing journals have expanded to max

 

[Quick Silver]

A good point Razoo, but as you say, very little oil retained, I would say on average about ½ liter.

Cranking the engine would not help here as oil is retained after the pump, and there would be no pressure to push the remaining old oil out. Draining when really hot is the best way as the oil is very thin and the bearing journals have expanded to max

What I meant was to crank the engine over AFTER it has been refilled with new oil .Theres not much you can do when drianing as you rightly say other than to get the engine up to its normal running temperature then drain .It's all to do with the suspension of contaminants and this is at its best when the engine is hot.

 

[television]

What I meant was to crank the engine over AFTER it has been refilled with new oil .Theres not much you can do when drianing as you rightly say other than to get the engine up to its normal running temperature then drain .It's all to do with the suspension of contaminants and this is at its best when the engine is hot.

Sorry and with you now,,yes a very good thing to do, cranking but not firing up, its the advantage that you have over being done in a garage

 

[Dosco]

Now I may have some of the following info a tad mixed up, given it is come from a 68 year old Mk1 memory chip.

My parents neighbour being an engineer of high standing (apprenticeship at RR Aero engines in Derby worked on the Supermarine float plane engines that broke the seaplane record and of course on the RR Merlin throughout the 40's as part of the development team that extracted more and more HP from it. He drove an old Armstrong Siddley (?) It was the sit up beg style with a green and black ali body and as we now say 'full leather' interior. This car had so many innovations like a pre-select gearbox, overdrive, coasting facility, intermittent electric wipers it was like something from the future to me a 7/8 year old always wanting to help him service and clean it.

One of these innovations served two purposes one as a method of raising each corner of the car to change a wheel - yes hydraulic rams and the second thing this device did was to pre-lubricate the engine prior to starting up. All this was driven by an electric oil pump, not sure if it was supplied by the separate oil tank - it did have one as I recall the 'Use Only Castrol Oil in this Engine' words on the top of the cap, Mr Pickering gave me the job of checking the oil level in this tank telling me it was the most important weekly job on the car!

All useless info I know but (possibly?) interesting and who knows bolting a separate electric oil pump to pre-oil the top end might just be a winner of an idea - just remember I said it first and a few bob in the hand would always be welcome.

 

[television]

I had one of the Armstrong Sideleys with the pre select fluid flywheel clutch, 4 wheel jacks made by Enots were fitted to all 4 corners.

The bottom line was that mine was a hearse, to go out picking up girls was impossible as they would not get in the thing

 

[drivinggod09]

was it mobil 1 than ran a new car to 100,000 miles on the same oil on a machine and took it all apart to examine if the engine had suffered excess wear this was a while ago so i might be getting mixed up think it was a bmw or a honda or they changed the oil every interval