Old vs New

[Botus]

I have noticed the level of queries being answered is dropping - yet there are still lots of skilled people here (with their knowledge still expanding) desperately trying to help. What I think changed are the faults and the possible causes have started going stupid, way beyond the possibilities of remote verbal diagnosis - and quite clearly heading passed what manufacturer support and dealer online tools can cope with too

with the reliable stuff of 18 years ago, no longer having the toys we expect, meaning they got abused / allowed to rust in our rush for modern toys and features, and with ECUs are starting to fail... how long before we go back to our 1960s British motorbikes, as they are more reliable, more user friendly and far more fun, than the current overpriced rubbish car manu's are peddling ?

 

[SL63 Mark]

Tech has it's place, I just hope there are enough experts around with the diagnostics to fix it. In theory, accurate diagnosis takes the guess work out of fixing Uber-complex cars. It is now a matter of replacing stuff rather than fixing it, to some extent. Don't worry about the future, it's all good. Be optimistic, things are getting better, not worse, change is fun, and should be embraced. Keep some old stuff, (I do) and buy some new. It's all fun.

 

[DSK]

Tech has its place to an extent…. I like to see the advances in engineering but making the inside of a car look like fvcking cocktail bar is hideous. Having tech that even decent mechanics can’t fix first time is a total pita.

However I’m firmly in the old camp, not selling my old Volvos, supra or bike as they can do some seriously sustained strenuous stuff that a modern car won’t be able to without crying at best. Nothing that can’t be fixed with common sense and normal tools and no bull shizzle getting in way. Also the designs and individuality is awesome.


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[Flyinspanner]

I fear that future ‘mechanics’ will just become ‘fitters’.

it will just become “this gizmo needs replacing” (at vast cost) despite the fact it may just need a small repair.. (a resistor, a chip)

hopefully a cottage industry will emerge to fix/ refurb the increasing number of ECUs, electronic doohickery, and doodaddery.

if not, good viable vehicles will be scrapped for fairly minor faults. You only have to look at the slew of NOX sensor fails - what happens in 8-10 years when need to replace them again?

maybe we need a section where we list such enterprises who can repair HK and Bose amplifiers, / Headunits/ ECUs / gateways/ SAMs /and all things electronic?

 

[grahamcol]

it will just become “this gizmo needs replacing” (at vast cost) despite the fact it may just need a small repair.. (a resistor, a
maybe we need a section where we list such enterprises who can repair HK and Bose amplifiers, / Headunits/ ECUs / gateways/ SAMs /and all things electronic?

Great suggestion.

 

[Botus]

You know forums are to keep you off the streets - in the old days I would resent using time up when I should be out and about enjoying life - but now you find your mates grew weird, the streets are horrible, its all clogged up with idiots, and it can be more fun reading lies on the internet

I guess it means they won?

 

[Craiglxviii]

I have noticed the level of queries being answered is dropping - yet there are still lots of skilled people here (with their knowledge still expanding) desperately trying to help. What I think changed are the faults and the possible causes have started going stupid, way beyond the possibilities of remote verbal diagnosis - and quite clearly heading passed what manufacturer support and dealer online tools can cope with too

with the reliable stuff of 18 years ago, no longer having the toys we expect, meaning they got abused / allowed to rust in our rush for modern toys and features, and with ECUs are starting to fail... how long before we go back to our 1960s British motorbikes, as they are more reliable, more user friendly and far more fun, than the current overpriced rubbish car manu's are peddling ?

1960s British motorbikes being reliable? Can I have some of what you’ve been smoking?

 

[Botus]

1960s British motorbikes being reliable? Can I have some of what you’ve been smoking?

that's one of the points I'm making - look how far we've come - round in a circle - except the old rubbish you could fix at the side of the road...

 

[Craiglxviii]

that's one of the points I'm making - look how far we've come - round in a circle - except the old rubbish you could fix at the side of the road...

No.

The typical service interval for a car of today is 20,000 miles. In 1980 it was 5,000 miles.

Here are some more numbers for you. The number of cars broken down are recorded by the Highways Agency, year by year. They’ve stayed roughly stable at approx. 200,000 per year for some time. Given there are around 32.5 million cars on the road, that gives modern cars a breakdown rate of 0.5% per year.

In 1981 there were 453k breakdowns recorded, for 19.2 million cars on the road, for a breakdown rate of 2.4% per year or 5 times what it is today.

Interestingly the most common causes of breakdown today are, in order:

Faulty battery
Faulty alternator
Faulty wheels/ tyres
Electrical/ electronic problems
Faulty keys/ immobiliser (mainly key battery)
Misfuelling

So the old rubbish could be fixed by the side of the road- except when it couldn’t, like the axle casing on our old Series 2 cracking, or the timing belt on our F reg Escort shredding itself 3 weeks out of warranty. Only those breakdowns would occur five times more often than today, and today’s breakdowns are about exactly as much to do with lack of maintenance as they ever were.

Nope, just not buying it. The good old days were never that good.

 

[SL63 Mark]

We just had lower expectations in the 80s. I knew my Morris Marina head gasket would blow every time I took the car out, so I kept bottles of water in the car, and spent my Saturdays changing head gaskets. Yes that car was easy to fix, but it was horrible quality in the first place. Also we had zero money back then, (I was a student), so things had to be cheap/free. I could see the ground through the floor of my Renault 4 van, it did not worry me. It still went.

I still own a couple of Defenders, so could change wheel bearings, half shafts , swap out a diff myself in half an hour. I am old enough not to want to any more, so when the clutch went recently, I gave someone else the pleasure of fixing it. It's called progress. I would not touch the SL63, I have no idea what anything does under the bonnet, with all the hoses, pipes, wires, belts, modules, it looks like spaghetti under there. I could not even find the AC compressor. Fortunately I have an MB dealership not far away, and Star Motors for anything serious.

 

[Blobcat]

We just had lower expectations in the 80s. I knew my Morris Marina head gasket would blow every time I took the car out, so I kept bottles of water in the car, and spent my Saturdays changing head gaskets. Yes that car was easy to fix, but it was horrible quality in the first place. Also we had zero money back then, (I was a student), so things had to be cheap/free. I could see the ground through the floor of my Renault 4 van, it did not worry me. It still went.

I still own a couple of Defenders, so could change wheel bearings, half shafts , swap out a diff myself in half an hour. I am old enough not to want to any more, so when the clutch went recently, I gave someone else the pleasure of fixing it. It's called progress. I would not touch the SL63, I have no idea what anything does under the bonnet, it looks like spaghetti under there. Fortunately I have an MB dealership not far away, and Star Motors for anything serious.

I’ve had to start putting apprentices through hand tool courses because modern cars are so reliable, they’re not learning the skills.
The days of being up until 03:00 repairing your car as you need it for work have gone.

 

[M80]

My take is that cars became far more reliable,
then more for increased revenues became / are becoming less reliable.

Legislation has caused manufacturers to incorporate more emission's kit, and still be competitive.
The EGR causes minor headaches.
The DPF and all the additional sensors causes regular headaches.
NOX sensors are a big, expensive pain to many.
The Ad Blue tank that could have easily been designated to be repairable another flippin' nuisance.

You may have noticed that I'm no longer familiar with the newer petrol mo mo's.
I'm also specifically referring the MB's, but believe other brands are similar but maybe differing a bit.

MB went through a period of creating ultra high miler engines, the 2.1 litre 4 pot up to the 646, but even that got more complicated as it evolved.
The in line 6 became the V6 642, with oil catching inlet motor and leaky seals.

Go back to 2000 - 2004 and you can have a v reliable diesel Merc, it just developed extra ventilation as it aged.

To me, you want the best of most worlds get the om646 w/o optional DPF, and produced some time after 2006.
They don't have LED's in abundance, DRL's aren't included, and they are an advantage.
Otherwise they can warm and massage your ass as you drive.
Such basics as AC and cruise are there.
Auto wipers and leccy windows obviously.
Distronic is even a possibility.
You may have to struggle with a car that can't talk to you through the internet though.

 

[Charliecloud]

I think CraigsIxviii summed it up nicely for me. Having owned 60s and 70s cars and a succession of old British bikes from a C11G, two BSA bantams and a Starfire I can personally attest to there unreliable nature when called upon for daily duties.

 

[LostKiwi]

It's interesting but I remember no more major issues with my 60s and 70s cars than with my newer one (Cooper S aside as that was a full race A series used on the road).
I do remember tinkering on them more often to keep them running well but that was always minor things like balancing twin SUs, adjusting mixtures and setting points. Exhausts were always an issue on the Minis (hardly surprising given gravel roads and 2" ground clearance).
My 1968 Mini 1000 van ran perfectly for tens of thousands of miles without issue. Even the Cooper S wasn't all that bad - the odd head gasket, a holed piston (result of miscalculation of compression ratio giving 15:1 compression ratio which pump petrol wasn't happy about), a destroyed primary drop gear bush failure and a set of idler drop gear bearings being the most notable failures which given competition use wasn't that bad over 5 years.

Rear subframes rotted (hmmm...) and the front caster arm could pull the eye on the subframe back but it was easily fixed with five minutes on the arc welder.

Top and bottom ball joints were a regular maintenance item but usually gave plenty of warning and we're almost a maintenance item.

The big thing for me was my Minis never left me stranded on the roadside. They always got me home to fix it later.

I'm always wary of modern electronics. Even moreso since @ajlsl600 had his ML turn into an immovable driveway ornament as a result of a failed ABS sensor. An old car would simply post an error (if it had ABS) and shrug it's metaphorical shoulders before driving away.

I was very tempted last week by an old 1950s car.

1953 Riley RME in brittany, France - For Sale | Car & Cla...

1953 Riley RME in brittany, France - For Sale | Car & Classic, £4,750 1953 riley rme oak & ash frame,marine ply covered with period green...

www.carandclassic.com

Unfortunately 'She Who Must Be Obeyed ' gave a resounding no unless I sold the 129 or 230 (which is not happening).

 

[AndySlade]

It's interesting but I remember no more major issues with my 60s and 70s cars than with my newer one (Cooper S aside as that was a full race A series used on the road).
I do remember tinkering on them more often to keep them running well but that was always minor things like balancing twin SUs, adjusting mixtures and setting points. Exhausts were always an issue on the Minis (hardly surprising given gravel roads and 2" ground clearance).
My 1968 Mini 1000 van ran perfectly for tens of thousands of miles without issue. Even the Cooper S wasn't all that bad - the odd head gasket, a holed piston (result of miscalculation of compression ratio giving 15:1 compression ratio which pump petrol wasn't happy about), a destroyed primary drop gear bush failure and a set of idler drop gear bearings being the most notable failures which given competition use wasn't that bad over 5 years.

Rear subframes rotted (hmmm...) and the front caster arm could pull the eye on the subframe back but it was easily fixed with five minutes on the arc welder.

Top and bottom ball joints were a regular maintenance item but usually gave plenty of warning and we're almost a maintenance item.

The big thing for me was my Minis never left me stranded on the roadside. They always got me home to fix it later.

I'm always wary of modern electronics. Even moreso since @ajlsl600 had his ML turn into an immovable driveway ornament as a result of a failed ABS sensor. An old car would simply post an error (if it had ABS) and shrug it's metaphorical shoulders before driving away.

I was very tempted last week by an old 1950s car.

1953 Riley RME in brittany, France - For Sale | Car & Cla...

1953 Riley RME in brittany, France - For Sale | Car & Classic, £4,750 1953 riley rme oak & ash frame,marine ply covered with period green...

www.carandclassic.com

Unfortunately 'She Who Must Be Obeyed ' gave a resounding no unless I sold the 129 or 230 (which is not happening).

Looks ideal for touring around France, already there by looks of advert. Can’t see it depreciating in value and not an excessive amount. Go on buy it, you know you want it! Have you space in the barn?

 

[LostKiwi]

Looks ideal for touring around France, already there by looks of advert. Can’t see it depreciating in value and not an excessive amount. Go on buy it, you know you want it! Have you space in the barn?

Plenty of space.....

Problem is that over the years I've become quite attached to my bollocks....

 

[adrianr]

Plenty of space.....

Problem is that over the years I've become quite attached to my bollocks....

Awesome - that really made me laugh!

 

[ajlsl600]

I think, as many older tend too that we want kit that lasts and that WE have some chance of fixing, and understanding. When I stop working, for 2nd and hopefully the last time I don't want to spend my time on a car transporter or shelling out a fortune for the likes of 1000 pound f headlights.
There is an 11,500 pound 1966 hilman minx 1725 online now with it seems 38 k unmolested miles on it . Given its tax mot exempt will never have en egr, adblue, software failure, or Need coding to put a tow bar on. The list ref modern car is near endless. I think this hilman is cheap. Just sad it will be gone before I can get to look at it.

 

[ajlsl600]

It's interesting but I remember no more major issues with my 60s and 70s cars than with my newer one (Cooper S aside as that was a full race A series used on the road).
I do remember tinkering on them more often to keep them running well but that was always minor things like balancing twin SUs, adjusting mixtures and setting points. Exhausts were always an issue on the Minis (hardly surprising given gravel roads and 2" ground clearance).
My 1968 Mini 1000 van ran perfectly for tens of thousands of miles without issue. Even the Cooper S wasn't all that bad - the odd head gasket, a holed piston (result of miscalculation of compression ratio giving 15:1 compression ratio which pump petrol wasn't happy about), a destroyed primary drop gear bush failure and a set of idler drop gear bearings being the most notable failures which given competition use wasn't that bad over 5 years.

Rear subframes rotted (hmmm...) and the front caster arm could pull the eye on the subframe back but it was easily fixed with five minutes on the arc welder.

Top and bottom ball joints were a regular maintenance item but usually gave plenty of warning and we're almost a maintenance item.

The big thing for me was my Minis never left me stranded on the roadside. They always got me home to fix it later.

I'm always wary of modern electronics. Even moreso since @ajlsl600 had his ML turn into an immovable driveway ornament as a result of a failed ABS sensor. An old car would simply post an error (if it had ABS) and shrug it's metaphorical shoulders before driving away.

I was very tempted last week by an old 1950s car.

1953 Riley RME in brittany, France - For Sale | Car & Cla...

1953 Riley RME in brittany, France - For Sale | Car & Classic, £4,750 1953 riley rme oak & ash frame,marine ply covered with period green...

www.carandclassic.com

Unfortunately 'She Who Must Be Obeyed ' gave a resounding no unless I sold the 129 or 230 (which is not happening).

Buy it just store it some where else for a while

 

[Craiglxviii]

I think, as many older tend too that we want kit that lasts and that WE have some chance of fixing, and understanding. When I stop working, for 2nd and hopefully the last time I don't want to spend my time on a car transporter or shelling out a fortune for the likes of 1000 pound f headlights.
There is an 11,500 pound 1966 hilman minx 1725 online now with it seems 38 k unmolested miles on it . Given its tax mot exempt will never have en egr, adblue, software failure, or Need coding to put a tow bar on. The list ref modern car is near endless. I think this hilman is cheap. Just sad it will be gone before I can get to look at it.

Slightly more expensive than the Minx, but this is tax & MOT exempt (and ULEZ compliant for that matter!)

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