Pre '92 W124 purchase on a tight budget?

[Chris_124W]

Duplicate Post-please ignore!!!! Pre '92 W124 purchase on a tight budget?

First up, just wanted to say what a fantastic source of info this forum is - a real find . Afraid this is another newbie post, but will try not to duplicate things I found via the forum search.

Been trawling the web and online classifieds for info on W124 Estates with a view to buying over the next few months- I didn't realise this kind of quality could be bought so cheaply!!!

I am basically looking for a good load lugger / tow car and motorway cruiser to use whilst restoring my other car (an '83 Mk1 Golf GTi). It needs to be reliable, DIY servicable, have a long MOT and not set me back much more than £1500 (including any work to make it a reliable runner).

Really after recommendations and opinions on the best engine / model combination for my needs within my budget. Need to know if I am wasting my time at this price range on a W124 or not.

Other info / questions that may help with replies:

- Needs to be a pre '92 car for classic insurance (big price diff for me as I am in a higher risk London postcode)

- won't be doing big miles so fuel consumption not a biggy, but think I'd prefer a petrol to a diesel on relative performance grounds (I know these cars are fairly pedestrian anyway in the acceleration stakes!)

- auto or manual box best from a reliability point of view? Can you do DIY work on the auto boxes?

- Is the head gasket only an issue on the 6 cyl cars - what about the 4 cyls?

- My DIY mechanical skills are pretty OK and happy to strip and refurb a 4 pot VW motor - will I have any probs working on a W124 (special tools needed, limited engine access?). Is a DIY head gasket job straightforward for example?

- GSF / ECP was my plan for most parts if needed on cost grounds - is there anything really expensive to watch for that will be an MB only genuine replacement (and therefore pricey)?

I would love to be able to afford a 300TE-24, but suspect its out of my budget. Cosmetically the car doesn't have to be pristine - its more important that its mechanically and structurally sound.

Will I regret going for say the 4cyl 230, over the 300 6cyl petrol or the 300 Diesel. I would like to experience the legendary MB refined driving experience, so I guess in my heart of hearts I'd like a 6cyl, but a bit concerned that component failure on a 6cyl will involve more expense than on the 4cyl.

Just to emphasise that getting the classic insurance is a biggie for me in London, so the '92 or later W124's are not really a goer for me at the moment (too young).

Been checking out autotrader, the very informative http://www.w124.co.uk site, plus of course ebay. Anywhere else I should be looking?

Any advice / opinions gratefully received.

Chris

 

[Chris_124W]

Sorry - duplicate post please ignore!!!!

Couldn't see how to delete this post, so mods please feel free to delete - its a duplicate of my other post :Oops:

Chris

 

[Seeker_UK]

I'm looking for a nice W124 for myself so I'll share what I've found so far.

For what it's worth, although the manual box will be less likely to burst and will offer slightly better fuel consuptions, the shift action is (in my opinion) nasty and because W124s have a foot operated parking brake means you need 3 feet to do hill starts properly - I didn't feel safe at all with a manual.

Personally I'd forget the 200 - it's a but wheezy if you're lugging loads. A 230 might be better but personally if it's pre '92, I'd go for a 6 pot 260 or a 300 (either variety) although I have yet to see (m)any 260TEs. My local specialist showed me an F plate 300TE with 210K on the clock and although looking a bit tired, it started first time.

Re component failure - I have been told the 4 bangers are more reliable than the 6 pots (with Headgaskets being the prime failure in them) but if either go wrong and you're doing DIY and sourcing your own parts, the cost / effot of repair will be pretty similar.

 

[Chris_124W]

Thanks for the heads up Seeker_UK. Based on your experience to date do you think my budget is enough for a sound pre-'92 car?

There are quite a few (mostly 300TEs) on ebay at the moment, and admittedly a few of them are a bit scabby with no history, but for pre '90 cars hardly any of them seem to be reaching much more than £500.

I'm interested to hear you mention the 260 engine option - is that a 6cyl petrol?

pre-'92 I thought my only options would be (for UK cars):

200TE
230TE
250TD
300TD
300TE
300TE-24

Despite the 6cyl head gasket issue, I think I am still leaning towards a 6 cyl, and given I am only looking at low annual mileage I don't think its worth the premium for the 300TD, as from the figures the fuel consumption isn't really massively better than the 3 litre petrol cars either.

Interesting to hear your comments on the manual gearbox, as it backs up what I have read heard elsewhere about the change being a bit naff.

I'm leaning towards a 300TE, maybe a 30TE-24 if I get lucky. Seem to be lots of 300TE's around in my price bracket. I guess I just need to check out the head gasket situation (most of the ones in my price range have done 150K+), and adjust prices accordingly if it needs doing.

Chris

 

[Seeker_UK]

Thanks for the heads up Seeker_UK. Based on your experience to date do you think my budget is enough for a sound pre-'92 car?

There are quite a few (mostly 300TEs) on ebay at the moment, and admittedly a few of them are a bit scabby with no history, but for pre '90 cars hardly any of them seem to be reaching much more than £500.

I'm interested to hear you mention the 260 engine option - is that a 6cyl petrol?

pre-'92 I thought my only options would be (for UK cars):

200TE
230TE
250TD
300TD
300TE
300TE-24

Despite the 6cyl head gasket issue, I think I am still leaning towards a 6 cyl, and given I am only looking at low annual mileage I don't think its worth the premium for the 300TD, as from the figures the fuel consumption isn't really massively better than the 3 litre petrol cars either.

Interesting to hear your comments on the manual gearbox, as it backs up what I have read heard elsewhere about the change being a bit naff.

I'm leaning towards a 300TE, maybe a 30TE-24 if I get lucky. Seem to be lots of 300TE's around in my price bracket. I guess I just need to check out the head gasket situation (most of the ones in my price range have done 150K+), and adjust prices accordingly if it needs doing.

Chris

The 6 cylinder 260 is a bit of a rarity - most were shipped out to the far east (Malaysia) and are a nice comrpomise between the 230 and the 300 offering some of the latters grunt for better fuel consumption. I don't know if many were made into tourings though.

Forget the 200TE, it's very wheezy.

Forget ant 4-matics - 4WD = even thristier and more expensive to repair if they go wrong

If you go for a 230 (pre 88 I think), check that the engine has a duplex timing chain fited by opening the oil filler cap and looking at the chain there (2 rows = duplex, 1 row = simplex). If a simplex make sure ut's been changed at 60K intervals or is as tight as a mouse's ear. 6 pots don't have this problem.

AFAIK, none of the diesels are turbodiesels so are all pretty slow from standstill but do get a good head of steam from 50 upwards. Fuel-wise, they're not super frugal (like later diesels) but do better than their petrol equivalents. Also, diesels are less likely to have higher spec as they are sold as mile-munching luggers.

As I am looking for a Coupe, some of the advice I have been given here has proven invaluable - the 300TE and 300TE-24 are thirsty with the 24V being the worse of the two. Some reckon that the 12V is smoother too and I have to agree it is a very smooth lump - I still need to get into a 24V to compare. However, the 24V has more oomph in spades. Both have a reputation for head gasket failure at 100K miles so look out to see it's been done or budget for about £1000 or so. Don't confuse oil seepage from the rocker cover with the infamous oil leak from the head gasket - 'they all do that sir'.

as for sites:

http://www.exchangeandmart.co.uk/motoring/

http://www.findit.co.uk/cars/mercedes/eclass.php

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/index.asp?c=33

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/index.asp?c=33

http://www.usedmercedescarsforsale.co.uk/search.htm

http://www.compucars.co.uk/default.asp

Should be enough to get started with!

Oh yes and,

http://www.stewart-wisbey.co.uk/

But give them a call - all of their stock isn't on the site (they had the 200K+ 300TE)

 

[Seeker_UK]

Just found this one in northants - high mileage but the ultra lovely 3.2 engine with a nice level of trim.

http://users.autoexposure.co.uk/cla.../is/remotemanaged/AETA62419/AETV607085_1a.jpg

A bit newer but might be worth it.

 

[Chris_124W]

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts .

I think playing the numbers game that I am more likely to end up with a 300TE as there seem to be a lot of them about so more likely to get a better choice. If head gasket needs doing I would definitely be going down the DIY route.

Also I have to bear in mind that even DIY, if I need to do any head refurb work a 12V head is going to need half the parts of a 24V head to recondition it. Performance is always nice to have, but with my budget I have to be realistic and for towing and DIY maintenance I suspect the 300TE is probably a more sensible choice than the 300TE-24.

I suspect as always with cars I will go for the first good condition one with history I find. Aside from the basics (engine and transmission), the goodies and colour will probably be secondary. I am after a reliable workhorse firstly that won't let me down or require a fortune spent on repairs - if that means an unfashionable colour or spec then so be it! At my budget resale doesn't really come into the equation.

Chris

 

[Chris_124W]

Hmm - just seen the one you posted and it looks very nice.

Sadly on insurance grounds I HAVE to be able to insure whatever I get on a classic policy. This means sadly whatever I go with HAS to be pre-'92. That may surprise some people, but the difference in premium in central London is amazing, for example:

- normal policy fully comp with full NCB for 300TE = £1000

- classic policy fully comp 6000miles PA for 300TE = £320

The downside of living in central London!

Given my budget on the car, this makes all the difference, which is a real shame as the later 280 and 320 multivalve engines sound like a much better prospect on these cars.

If all goes well though, who is to say that I don't get a reliable pre '92 W124 and then "upgrade" to one of the last W124's in a few years time when they go past their 15th birthdays ;-).

Cheers,

Chris

 

[turnipsock]

My 87 230TE has a duplex chain. It cost me a £1000 a couple of years ago so your budget should get you something pretty good. One previous owner was Robbie Coltrain, which probably explains why the drivers seat is in a mess.

I seem to have a foot in both camps having a 230TE and a 320CE.

The head gasket isn't an expensive part though it is a time consuming job and you will end up with a sore back.

Tell me more about this classic policy. I put my milage for my 230TE at 5k/year but still had to fork out £180. It is pretty much a second car. However my 320CE's insurance is £241!

 

[cubicincubi]

you should, imho, also look at post 93 16V E220 and E200, you will get one in good nick for £1500 and they are only insurance group 13 or 14 for 220. 300TE is group 16, so you'll save what you would have gained on a classic policy.

The later twin cam 4 pots dont struggle as much as the early 200TE and the E200 has as many ponies as a 230TE.

If you will be definately lugging heavy loads up to maximum kerb weight then definately get the pre 93 6 pot as the post 93 4 pots will lug the load but not in an enthused manner like a straight six.

 

[Chris_124W]

I hear what you are saying about the multivalve later cars, but even at group 13-14, a non classic policy is going to cost me £700 at least - I've tried a LOT of online quote sites. Bottom line is my postcode is classified as very high risk and this seems to dwarf any other factor in the premium calculations.

For the record I'm a late 30-something, married, completely clean licence held for over 20 years with full NCB. Car although parked off road would not be garaged.

I'm a firm convert to classic cars, especially as I love tinkering with cars and quite happy to do all my own repairs/maintenance. For some reason (probably the age demographic), classic policies are significantly cheaper for me and the low mileage limits are not really an issue as I never do over 6K miles a year living in central London.

I have an Mk1 VW Golf GTi that was my daily driver until recently that was fully comprehensively insured with an agreed value, 6000 miles a year and breakdown cover included with only £100 excess. The cost? £285 per year all in, thats with no security devices fitted and only parked on the driveway, not garaged. I had a similar premium for a '93 Mk1 MX-5 SE, so it wasn't a one off either.

After much searching over the years, I tend to find for my circumstances Footman James give the best quotes and the service in the event of a claim seems pretty good too - google for their website if you want to take it further. Usual disclaimer, no connection other than a satisfied customer etc........

Classic policies do have some downsides though which mean they are not suitable for everyone. Some of the common gotchas I have come accross:

- Usually need to be 25 years or over and held a full UK licence for at least a few years

- Your licence needs to be pretty clean. I think one SP30 (3-6 points) is about the limit.

- Mileage limit to a max of about 6000 per year. This is usually the biggy for most people doing normal mileages (12K per year). Of course think laterally though and be prepared to do some DIY maintenance and you could probably run 2 classics for the price of a newer car so getting round the problem!!!!

- Car must usually be a minimum of 15 years old to qualify. In some cases cars are insured on a classic policy younger (MX-5's for example over 10 years old seem to qualify).

As mentioned though there are plusses like agreed value (no hassle on valuation if its written off), not to mention the cost savings.

From what I have read I think the W124 and the sister coupe cars from the same period are likely to become well regarded classics. Look at the values of serviceable W123's, these have already attained classic status and good condition ones have certainly stopped depreciating.

I really like the W124 estate styling its what I would consider to be the epitome of whats is great about MB's. Timeless classic, but understated design and peerless build quality. These cars were ENGINEERED for quality and to maintain a reputation rather than being built to a strict budget / lifespan as most of todays cars seem to be. The other key to the cars longevity is that it isn't packed full of computerised control systems, so its a viable DIY prospect.

I know it sounds like an "old git" type of thing to say, but many cars today, (excluding expensive exotics), are just not built or engineered to last in the way that many quality make cars were 15+ years ago. My Mk1 golf may be very basic equipment wise and nearing its 23rd birthday, but what is there is high quality and built to last - it just oozes solidity and sound design and materials even at 160K miles on the original engine and gearbox.

If I find the right W124 then I suspect I may be tempted to swap it for another in a few years time. Many people seem to say once you have experienced the build quality and engineering of a Merc its hard to get used to anything else!!! I am hoping they are right!!!

Chris

 

[Chris_124W]

Actually, I was a bit quick to dismiss the ordinary policy. It looks like the insurance on a '93 220TE or a '93 320 TE would only come in at about £100 more than the classic policy.... hmmmmm

The 320TE and the fact I am looking at slightly younger cars are plus points. Depends how that fits in with my sub £1500 budget though I guess.

Anyone know if there is much more in the way of electronics on the later cars in terms of ECU's etc? Guessing these cars will also definitely have cats fitted? My main concern is DIY potential.

Off to check ebay and autotrader plus GSF for replacement CAT prices!!!!!

Chris

 

[turnipsock]

Peerless

Stick a personal plate on a W124 and people wouldn't know it's an old car.

I once bought a Peerless as restoration project but never got very far with this. I still have a rear windscreen for this car if anybody wants one. Since they stopped making the rear screens then it's probably worth lots.

Peerless ran a car at LeMans, which was not much more than the version you could buy, and it finished 18th!

 

[cubicincubi]

many cars today, (excluding expensive exotics), are just not built or engineered to last in the way that many quality make cars were 15+ years ago. My Mk1 golf may be very basic equipment wise and nearing its 23rd birthday, but what is there is high quality and built to last - it just oozes solidity and sound design and materials even at 160K miles on the original engine and gearbox.

I know what you mean - I have a 19year old convertible and a 16yr old coupe and they're both solid and build so well.

 

[Bolide]

Early W124

From what you say I think you should get a 300-24 valve or a slightly later 280TE/E280. For my money the 300TE is just too thirsty to be useable as an everyday car

I don't think there's a hard & fast rule about the age at which a car becomes a classic. If you already have a classic policy with FJ you should be able to do a bit of horse-trading to try and get a slighly "too new" car in on a classic policy. They will write them as separate policies but, as you know, once you're through to the FJ classic department the attitude is a world away from normal insurers and a bit of discussion may help your case

The 24-valve is a bit of a beast. I didn't have long in the one I had but achieved 22 mpg one weekend. That did involve some "performance testing", strictly for pre-sale test purposes of course. It was only after I sold it I worked out it had a 5-speed box and I had been cruising in 4th!

I find the 300TE a bit of a plodder. It's a fantastic wafter but the E280 does that whilst having some kick too. The 24 valve is like a 300TE tweaked by GTi Engineering - mad & bad, and great when you're in the mood, but a little wearing in the end

I don't think the maintenance cost differences between a four cylinder car and a six will be significant. But a six cylinder would be a better tow wagon and long distance hack

Let us know how you get on!


Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk

 

[Chris_124W]

Thanks Nick - really appreciate your input. Your site is one of the most informative I've found and its useful to be able to see the cars you have sold and what they went for.

If my budget was higher I'd be paying you a visit for the piece of mind and the nice examples you seem to get hold of . Sadly I think my budget is going to restrict me to the private sale section of the market and the slightly higher mileage cosmetically not so good examples (not really a problem from my point of view - this car will be a practical workhorse after all).

I think given the ins quotes and the small difference (£100) in insurance for a later 24v 280TE/E280 as you suggest might fit the bill for me better. I like the sound of the earlier 300TE-24, and the silver one with black leather you had on your site looked great. However they seem pretty rare. What sort of fuel consumption could I expect to see on a 280TE driven carefully on a long motorway journey do you think? Is 30mpg+ realistic if not fully loaded or towing?

There is a Dec '94 E280 with leather and a few extras and 119K miles that has some minor cosmetic damage (scrape on door, cracked bumper) that looks otherwise sound on ebay at the mo. I'm going to see what it goes for, but if it goes for under £1500 then I think there is hope for me yet:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4611788475&rd=1&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT&rd=1

Is the head gasket still an issue on the later multivalve 6 cyl engines like the 280's? Anything else to watch out for on the later engines over and above the gotchas for earlier cars?

Seem to remember something about a biodegradeable engine wiring loom on some later W124's, but can't remember which ones.

Thanks again to everyone that has taken the time to reply. I am sure going down the W124 route will suit me well, and I am in no hurry so can wait for the right car to turn up.

Chris

 

[turnipsock]

Of course think laterally though and be prepared to do some DIY maintenance and you could probably run 2 classics for the price of a newer car so getting round the problem!!!!

From what I have read I think the W124 and the sister coupe cars from the same period are likely to become well regarded classics. Look at the values of serviceable W123's, these have already attained classic status and good condition ones have certainly stopped depreciating.

err...I think you are talking about me here.

I run two cars. The 230TE didn't cost much and it's only the tax, mot and insurance that cost money. I use this when I'm doing any work on the 320CE or vice versa. It means I can take my time with the jobs.

It also means I have a car to lug stuff around or a car to go fast in.

The other plus point is that when they ask me at work if can play golf tonight I can say "Sorry, my clubs are in my other Merc".

 

[Chris_124W]

head gasket and engine wiring loom replacement costs on 280 W124?

I like your style turnipsock

For me the Merc (when I get it) will be a run around and occasional tow car during the restoration of my Mk1 Golf. Like you say it means you can take your time working on one car whilst using the other one.

Going back to the 280TE/E280 - do these suffer from the dreaded "disintegrating engine wiring loom issue" I have heard about? If so whats the cost of a replacement loom (guessing it has to be MB, right?). Just thinking that any 280TE/E280 I look at is likely to have over 100K on the clock so will need the head gasket doing to be safe. From what I have read here (useful site btw although US biased):

http://www.mercedesshop.com/Wikka/M104HeadGasket

The movement required to get the head off will probably guarantee a dodgy loom will fail, so its an idea to replace it.

I just need to get am idea of parts prices for when I'm looking at potential purchases. Over the years I have learnt to be a pessimist when it comes to buying used cars - i.e. unless there is irrefutable proof that a job has been done on a car assume it hasn't .

So I reckon I need to budget for a loom and a head gasket change on a 280 of about '93/'94 vintage.

Chris

 

[turnipsock]

I replaced the loom on my 320CE not that long ago. There will be one of my usual threads with a blow by blog account of this somewhere on this forum.

The loom is in a high heat area so the insulation will fall apart eventually but I think if you are careful when replacing plugs and stuff it will last for ages.

You are probably right and it will fall apart when you start moving things around to get the head off.

 

[Seeker_UK]

From what you say I think you should get a 300-24 valve or a slightly later 280TE/E280. For my money the 300TE is just too thirsty to be useable as an everyday car

Nick, are yousaying that the 12V 3 litre lump is more thirsty that than 24V? Having pored over several threads here, (they were for saloons / coupes true) the concensus was that the opposite was the case.

Or are you saying they're about the same but the extra fun of the 24V makes it worth it?